Interviewee: This is a big step right here.

Interviewer: Got It.

Interviewee: This is my little office.

Interviewer: Hi Office.

Interviewee: Which is really in kind of a mess now. Because I don't really like to spend much time in there. So what your step up here and sorry, it's so great today, I'm gonna show you this. This is my little drying room[inaudible 00:00:18] where I started.

Interviewer: Oh wow. So what happens in here?

Interviewee: Well I get down to Aspenwood up in the mountains.

Interviewer: Yeah. So I read that about you.

Interviewee: I put it in here for a while to dry, it's [inaudible 00:00:33] like a natural kiln. Leave it up and definitely I will be locked up here.

Interviewer: Can I step in?

Interviewee: Yeah. It's just a jumble right now. I go through every, like maybe two years I go through and do a purge, but right now it's not, it's in the jumble phase.

Interviewer: So talk to me about how like, so you say you go and gather this and I read that in your 'about' part, what do you look for?

Interviewee: I look for basically different sizes of wood.

Interviewer: Show close.I told her to get more raw so she's probably loving that.

Interviewee: You go ahead. I'm just gonna... tell her to pull this. She's probably baking in there. Shut the door.

Interviewer: She's fine. This is heaven for her because it's real and she loves like a real part of it.

Interviewee: Yeah. It doesn't need to pull that.

Interviewer: We'll tell her. So tell me, because that's really at the core of it. So you're walking through, I saw the adorable picture of you in the forest with a backpack, that was adorable.

Interviewee: It isn't too bad.

Interviewer: It's cute. I love it. What are you looking for? So you're walking through and why yes, why no?

Interviewee: Well first of it's only down at Aspenwood.

Interviewer: Perfect. I was going to ask you about that.

Interviewee: I go to the forest service and I get a permit and a lot of times I'll ask him, is there a place where there's good [inaudible 00:02:04] collecting right now, most of the people do the firewood so, they kinda know where there's been a lot of down wood. And then you know what year it is and look for different sizes of like, I look for long down trees that we can cut into like...

Interviewer: Viable pieces.

Speaker 1: Turn that off because it's going to pick this up.

Interviewer: Nope, sorry. It's fine. I was just remembering that I have to listen to this later and while I liked that. So, so it sounds like you're looking for... your tea right there. It sounds like you're looking for something that would work mechanically, but what is in it? Let's go back even further. Why Aspen? Why would I want to do is go all the way back to you this big or this big or when it started that you were like, "I'm gonna..." because this is what I want. I want to look at you not now matured artist very well established, but how'd you get from here to there?

Interviewee: Like from my childhood? [crosstalk 00:03:21]

Interviewer: So you're walking through....

Interviewee: Just I'll start with [inaudible 00:03:25] because I didn't straight out to be years ago..

Speaker 1: And please just focus...

Interviewer: Yeah.

Interviewee: I always drew and was one of the kids in school that was always had their hand with the crayons and I kind of gravitated last year in college really towards sculpture. I just sort of randomly took a sculpture class by accident and I really didn't like wood. I didn't like it at all. I thought, "This is not me." And I wasn't like gravitating towards carpentry though we had to build some structural things. But I really love folk art and I always loved folk art and I loved the... I grew up with my parents bring me toys from Mexico that were carved out of wood.

Interviewer: Because your dad was a boarder.

Interviewee: Just one day a week he worked on the boarder.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Interviewee: We've lived here in Tucson when I was really small and then we moved to Washington state. So it was in the forest all the time for a few years and I just, I just really loved the feeling of the wood and, I don't know, it resonated with me. So here I was in sculpture class and I just started building stuff out of steps, which it was really...

Speaker 1: I'm sorry, do I shut this now?

Interviewer: Just leave it to crack please.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Interviewee: It was a pretty contemporary sculpture program, so I started building stuff out of sticks and they didn't know what the heck I was doing. Personally...

Interviewer: Did you know what you were doing?

Interviewee: Not really at first of all. But definitely, it was more of a intuitive thing, like have always worked really intuitively. So I was working, building these figures out of not knowing what I was doing.

Interviewer: About how old were you?

Interviewee: I was like in early twenties.

Interviewer: Okay. So not until then did you pick up sticking, see something in it and start to write, but you always had some tendency.

Interviewee: Yeah, actually I started out photography because I thought that would be practical, but I'm not. So anyway, I gravitate towards the wood and then shortly after that graduated and I was working in the film business pretty soon after I graduated. And I was kind of going back between Arizona and LA as a gypsy and I ended up staying with my friend up in Flagstaff for a couple months when I finished the job . And I discovered her little dremel and all I had with me was like really remedial arts place, but she had this little dremel which is like a mini carving tool that a lot of craft and people use. So I just started carving some wood that I picked up there in the woods. And then from there I said to her, "This is a breakthrough." And she look like, "Oh, whatever."

Interviewer: And so there was something, and that's it? Like, "That's where I want to get to."

Interviewee: No there wasn't actually, now that I think about it, before that happened, I was living here and a friend of mine had cottonwood root, which is what they current Katina dolls out here. And he was making these really cool kind of primitive type sort of emulating people that Tina. And I said, "Can I try so of that?" And so it gave me a little bit and I whittled with that before I went off to LA and whittled with that a little bit and I made a couple of bigger[inaudible 00:07:13], which I still have, not in here, I'd show you. And then from there I started doing these really, really primitive figure to angel pieces that were way less. I mean they're very, very primitive, but they...

Interviewer: So let me dig in there a little bit. That's important stuff. So something made you make a primitive angel and is it probably because, I'm piecing together, did you unstitch if it's not right. So Dad brought you Tory, right? And then you are always had a tendency for tactile, right?

Interviewee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewer: So these pieces seem to make sense. And then you saw something that you liked in this person's art, this man's art and then you just start like, what was, what did it, were you compelled, were you possessed or it was just, "I want to do that."?

Interviewee: First it wasn't the man's art that I saw.

Interviewer: Okay.

Interviewee: It was the folk art and the indigenous art and all of that. And growing up here I was really in love with, we have this mission called San Xavier, which is amazing. It's a Spanish colonial mission. It has amazing carbons in it and frescoes and the Indians helped this man named Fr. Kino build it. So it's just sort of this interesting hybrid, kind of Spanish colonial interior and exterior. So I grew up looking at that too and that really fascinated me and I'm not Catholic. So it was always a place that was for me, really mysterious and quiet. And I loved the feeling and the purity of that very naive art. So when I started working that way, it was because I was working intuitively and I wanted something that was here and just cut straight to the emotion, I did a lot of over intellectualize what I was doing. So by not really knowing what I was doing, that was almost easier because I couldn't control it too much. I couldn't over intellectualize it .

Interviewee: That said, I understood what I was doing, I'm not a fork artist. I understood the symbolism in it and for me, angels at that time represented hope. It was a time when AIDS was like really huge on the planet and I was really, I lost some friends, I felt like that needed to be put out into the world. And so as an artist, I'm always gonna choose to express my feelings through my art and communicate that way. So it was a little bit about, it wasn't like I just intuitively made it and there was no rhyme or reason that I could figure. I knew there was a concept or too but...

Interviewer: When did you start? So you said something important there, you said as an artist, when did you start to say, "Oh, I think that's what I am." Like when did you start to go, "I think I can say that," and not feel like "I'm an artist." Like when did that start to feel okay and what was it? And I have a couple more questions. This is great stuff. It's great.

Interviewee: I'm glad.

Interviewer: Well, you're talking about something that you identified with that you saw the purity and the truth and you're not of the form the people that made it, but you understood and you started to join that and you understood what they were communicating or spoke to you. It doesn't matter whether it was conscious.

Interviewee: It definitely spoke to me. Oftentimes still to this day, more than a lot of contemporary though I'm getting a contemporary artist. Anyway, so.

Interviewer: The artist question. Yes.

Interviewee: Probably when I was in college I was sort of a pretentious.

Interviewer: Right, right, because it comes out that way at first [crosstalk 00:11:12] you're like you can change your voice.

Interviewee: Yeah. You have to kind of own it I think. And when you go out in the world, it's not like people are going to necessarily step back.

Interviewer: This is the essence, you have to keep going. Yes you're right.

Interviewee: You have to just sort of own it and go with it. And I was having this conversation with a friend the other day who was a filmmaker and he can't take in this new job as an engineer. He worked as a professional for many years, not in the film industry, but kind of related. But then he totally got a new degree. And we were talking about his new job and he said, "The people are so nice and they're the kind of nerdy and unpretentious and really accepting. But they aren't always like that." And it's really actually true.

Interviewee: I mean I have many wonderful friends who are artists, but you have to like kind of just really prepare yourself for anything that's gonna happen or any kind of criticism you're going to have because that's just the nature.

Interviewer: People are gonna like it or not like and all of that.

Interviewee: Yeah. So I called myself an artist and then I just had to own it.

Interviewer: What was it, was it odd to say at first, or was it just something that you're still a little straighter once you realized you were that thing, did it feel freeing or is it just a fact and it wasn't that big of a deal or? Talk a little bit.

Interviewee: I think it was just a fact that I think really I was always an artsy kid. Like my parents kind of raised us to be connected.

Interviewee: Yeah, okay. My father did too, all of us did. So it was okay, my parents were actually both trained as artists, study to get work in the field. Oh my mom wasn't trained but she was an artist too. And so it was not that unusual really to just be that way.

Interviewer: It wasn't such a leap.

Interviewee: It was actually more difficult to not be like that. So yeah.

Interviewer: So what would, and this isn't, this is a stumper question usually, what would make you stop?

Interviewee: You mean now?

Interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewee: I can't not do it. When the economic recession hit, I thought about other things to do because I lost a lot of my income and this is my income, my source of income, so I lost a lot of my income and a lot of galleries closed.

Interviewer: Okay, I imagine.

Interviewee: It was really just a very difficult time. And then my husband got his hours cut at work too and we were both like, "What are we going to do here? This is going to be really difficult."

Speaker 1: And I've tried to get another job, and I got her to do like a retail job.

Interviewee: Thank you.

Interviewee: And when I looked at really the reality of it, I just realized I couldn't do it. I was going to have to make this work. And I think for me, the only thing that makes me stop probably would be a physical problem.

Interviewer: So I'm sorry. Right. How did you make the transition to this as your full time income or was it from day one? You just start? Did you ever have a different path you were following and then said, "Well, I'm going to do this."

Interviewee: I always had different jobs. When I got out of college I taught art to kids, I wiped tables and wash dishes. I got a friend of mine was working in LA on low budget movies when I went, did that and I kind of floated around as a Gypsy for about five years doing that and it was really fun. But I realized that if I was going to do that really I to have to move to LA and I was going to have to, I was not going to be able to have a studio. So I came back here and kept working on films but I was able to have a studio because it's not as expensive here. I mean I may have been able to do it. I also needed to focus. So I can't remember.

Interviewer: No, I asked you, when did you say, "I'm going to do this full time and this is my thing and this is who I am and this is it."

Interviewee: So then I came back here, pretty much stopped working on films and my husband was still doing it but I wasn't doing it so much.

Interviewer: Was that a means to be able to do the art or was it just something you were still, it was just near artistic, so you wanted to do it?

Interviewee: I got a job working in a gallery.

Interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Interviewee: That very year and then I started just getting more work and then I guess what really enabled me to do it, was I went and I did at American Craft Council show and I got orders, I got a lot of orders. I got an order from Neiman Marcus and say, "I'm on my way." Well that only happened once, but it was like...

Interviewer: Feel a validation? did it, like tell me.

Interviewee: It did, it felt like validation and also I had an income. I could come home and I could do the orders and I realized, "Yeah, I can actually make my art and people will buy it."

Interviewer: Did your art change once you started getting commercial accepted or?

Interviewee: So what happened, and this has been a long and slow 25 years of this happening.

Interviewer: By the way, I don't want[inaudible 00:16:57]

Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's just so much to look at, it looks great.

Interviewee: Thank you.

Interviewer: Make sure you show her.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I will.

Interviewee: So anyway, but don't let me know you [inaudible 00:17:05].

Speaker 1: I won't.

Interviewee: So anyway, what I had to do, I went to talk to mum. And I had already, "You can do in this without knowing it." Well I knew it but there's a certain amount of worth that I could sell as limited production. And what happened when I went there is I had to do too much of that work. ell anyway, but they made a certain amount of work that I, I could sell as limited production. And what happened when I went there is I had to do way too much of that work. And you kind of get in this groove where you're doing and then it's like your full time job and there's no room. You have to really balance it with allowing yourself play time and allow yourself for, at least me, because I'm not hardly at all doing limited production anymore. I do still do it, it's my day job. I quit my day job.

Interviewee: But more and more I realized, "This isn't working." It was kind of killing my soul really to do that. I love creating products but I don't like necessarily manufacturing of hundred of them. I have a creative line for that and fortunately for me I can think or I have been able to think of things that are appealing, like smaller works that are appealing, and I enjoy making them. And I enjoy sharing them and it's like a small, kind of encapsulation of my greater vision I would guess you'd say.

Interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Like a business purse.

Interviewee: Yeah. And also I like that I can make stuff that's affordable for people. So I really, it's all about communication, but when it starts taking over too much of my time, then I have to step back and then I have to say, "Well you might never sell anything again." And it's always scary every time. It's like, "Oh, I have to step back from this." So anyway, I did that and I did that Baltimore shirt probably seven years every year and then I stopped. I can't remember what. It was just slowing down, slowing down a lot. And so then I I've kind of always balanced back and forth. And then when the recession hit again, I started doing more of it and working with an online company called Art for Ham, which has been really great.

Interviewer: I've got pieces from there.

Interviewee: Yeah. So they...

Interviewer: I've got one of the artists there.

Interviewee: Which one? Was it Bruce?

Interviewer: Bruce [inaudible 00:19:23].

Interviewee: Yeah. I know him.

Interviewer: He's in this.

Interviewee: Yeah, I know. I saw his name on there and I was like, "Well, he's in it." I love him, he's like the sweetest guy.

Interviewer: He is the sweetest guy, he wrote me back and said, "I'm so humbled. I know a lot of these artists and I'm so humbled to be able..." It was sweet, it was very sweet.

Interviewee: He's a delightful guy and so is his wife. Anyway, so I can't remember a thing again.

Interviewer: I was talking to you about the commercialization and what that did to the feel of your art. You answered that very well. I wanted to talk a little bit, and this is kind of a gray area, so now your art starts to sell and you have that validation and it's your full time thing and it's what you do, right?

Interviewee: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Interviewer: So you have the pieces that are selling and you know what those are, but you're yearning for this play time, so you have to balance that out. What is the drive? What is the impetus? Because we talked about, you first picked up the sticks and all of that and we talked about what the impetus for that was. Now, what you impetus is?

Interviewee: Like today?

Interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). How has it changed and what were those periods and was it things in your life that happened or was it still that same pureness that when you were young that's still compels you today or just talk a little bit about that now.

Interviewee: Well, I was doing a lot of work with our, I was getting catalog orders and it became, I realized, I looked back, I was applying for this grant actually. And I looked back over 10 years of work and I look back over what I had done since I started working with the art at home. And I told my friend who's also married, "I think I haven't been like pushing myself the way I need to. I've gotten lazy in the past couple of years." She goes, "No you haven't." I go, "No, I really am looking at what I've done and I feel like I need to push myself out of my box." And that coupled with the fact that I was pretty, I've always been an environmentalist and I felt like I needed to speak to and I was raised with something of a social conscience though I don't feel that I'm a political artist at all, it's not my desire to be one.

Interviewee: There are certain issues that I need to address with my work that I can't do on a small scale or a less complicated scale. So I felt like, "Now's the time. I'm gonna be 58 years old and I need to do this now because my body might not last that much longer and this is what I need to do." So about actually just really at the beginning of this year, I had a sculpture show coming up but it was only sculpture and I just said, "I'm just going to lock this up in here and just push, push myself back into that world because I need to do that." And I was very pleased. And I was starting to do it already with a few pieces and I do all this work but again I would get bogged down with reporters and I had to just focus on that and make my living.

Interviewee: So I looked at last year and I went, "You did these really cool pieces, but then you let that go, you didn't do." And also I had collectors buying that work, which was wonderful, but it wasn't here for me to see. So I was feeling lacking like that's not here. It's almost like it didn't exist for me. So I felt like I just needed to start pushing in a different direction. I think that we all probably as creative types, feel like we have to keep pushing and growing and not get complicit, but it's just not..

Interviewer: Is it in your right practice.

Interviewee: Why we do it, I mean why would we do it? It's not like I did this to get rich.

Interviewer: Why did you?

Interviewee: I have to. I'm just move this stuff over just over it.

Interviewer: Okay, really it's perfect for what I want it too.

Interviewee: This is a cucumber yogurt . So anyway...

Interviewer: I asked you why do you.

Interviewee: Yeah, I have to.

Interviewer: And that is what I'm trying to get at. So just talk to me about how you feel about the sentence, not necessarily. So I feel like, this is me talking, I feel like everyone has a little bit of a voice somewhere that wants to express in a way that's not verbal necessarily. Could be writing, I'm talking about oral, not necessarily, they want to create, they want to pick up clay or wood or found objects or whatever it is. I feel like there's something, but as we were talking about earlier, society is, but you can't call yourself an artist, you have to actually be able to pay. If you look at some of the most famous painters, there's no way that, that would have been considered good if it was the first thing that they did.

Interviewer: So I wanted to talk to you a little bit. You said something a second ago, as an artist or as an artistic person, do you believe everyone is?

Interviewee: Oh yeah. Like before when I first got...even when I was in college, I taught her to children.

Interviewer: Yes.

Interviewee: And you can't help but see that every single one of them has this creative spark and there's way of communicating that nonverbal.

Interviewer: Yes, yes. We start that way.

Interviewee: Exactly. Yeah, I think it gets conditioned out of us for sure. And like I said, my parents didn't do that to us. And they were both artists and my dad taught me like a little drawn things to when I was young, but I'm not the best draftsman in the world. I'm not the best but I...

Interviewer: It's not about that, is it?

Interviewee: I have to create like... my husband, when the recession hit I said, "I should just do something else. Let's think of something else I should do because you can't." He knows me. He knew I couldn't and I know I can't either.

Interviewer: So talk to me, speaking of husband, talk to me about what that's like and how you carve out the time and it sounds like he's very respectful and understanding of what you need to do this. So if I was looking at a circle, what percent would be the time you need to do this? Was it 75 percent of your time was was it 60, waking hours?

Interviewee: It's a lot. My work is really slow and it's really labor intensive so I spend a lot of time here. I usually work Monday through Friday, regular hours. I come in a little bit late but it worked a little bit later usually. In the summer, not so much but then I work Saturdays too, most of the time. And when I'm getting ready for a show, I'm troubled that, and I work really long hours.

Interviewer: And he handles that by?

Interviewee: Helping make dinner, vacuuming if I need to. We've divided our household chores a lot. But I do more inside stuff he does more outside stuff. But usually what happens is, he gets home earlier than me so we'll make something for dinner, I'll make a big salad in the morning and he'll help get it ready at night. And so he just helps.

Interviewer: So he understand this part of you and he...

Interviewee: Well, he's an artist too, but he has a regular job now, but he totally understands that. He's very supportive. He helps me get my wood, he built this bench.

Interviewer: I love this bench actually.

Interviewee: He's amazing.

Interviewer: Pets, kids?

Interviewee: Pets, no kids. Cat kids.

Interviewer: Really furry children. Choice because of the art, or it's just something that wasn't in your...

Interviewee: I've never been really maternal and honestly my mom was ill when I was growing up. I had to do a lot of caregiving and I think I might have something to do with it.

Interviewer: It's interesting when I was reading your story, you mentioned your father and never mentioned her and I was like, "Hmm, that's interesting."

Interviewee: Yeah. She passed away when I was 13 and she was pretty sick before that, so when we moved to Washington state she got really sick.

Interviewer: Right.

Interviewee: And I think after that I became more of a caregiver. After she passed away, I have a younger brother and I felt, "I have responsibilities, pretty young." So that's might be one reason why I didn't feel I wanna do it.

Interviewer: Is that influence or come into your work at all or is your work still just that the purity of what you saw when you were young and brought forward?

Interviewee: Influenced after losing my mom?

Interviewer: Yeah, I'm sure it does. But I think not directly. And I mean I have a niece and I have so many friends who... Sorry, so we can pull it out if you need more room.

Speaker 1: No thank you.

Interviewee: But I mean I'm very sensitive to mothers and how they raise their kids and I don't know.

Interviewer: You see macro maternal to me.

Interviewee: What does that mean?

Interviewer: Like instead of just me for what I've birthed, you seem macro maternal, you seem like you care in general, not specifically to a certain percentage. You seem like you care in general, so you seem macro maternal to me.

Interviewee: That's a [inaudible 00:30:04] word.

Speaker 2: ... take care in general. So you seem macro-maternal to me.

Speaker 3: That's a neat word.

Speaker 2: I just made it up. I coined it today.

Speaker 3: I think that's true, because I was talking to my husband about politics. We were up on our way to Phoenix for the weekend, and we were driving back, and he said, "I'm really more interested in our local politics." He goes, "You don't read so much about our local news as much as I do." And I go, "You're right, I don't, because I'm concerned about the whole world and how it's going to be, like how we affect it and what's happening. And if we don't pay attention-"

Speaker 2: We went into this world.

Speaker 3: I think that if we don't pay attention to what's happening, it's going to come into our world. We can't just let it go and live in a vacuum. We have to pay attention to what's happening everywhere. So yes, I am macro.

Speaker 2: Now you can say, that's because I'm macro-maternal.

Speaker 3: I like that. I'm going to say that? Are you a psychologist?

Speaker 2: No, I'm not. I just play one on TV. No, because I think there's things I'm seeing you more now of course from hearing you say these intimate, personal things. Do you mind if I ask what your mom passed of?

Speaker 3: She had rheumatoid arthritis, and she committed suicide. Eventually.

Speaker 2: My husband did. Just so that there's a kindred [inaudible 00:31:31].

Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: That's okay. I've investigated it very thoroughly as I'm sure you've thought through, but I'm wondering, and forgive me again, but I'm wondering if you not necessarily having that specific maternal in the strength or the way that is traditional made you macro-maternal because you want to give it, because you didn't necessarily have it in the way. And I don't mean to get so, but I'm wondering if these things are actually really related. Is your macro-maternalism based on that?

Speaker 3: It could very well be, you know? Because I don't [inaudible 00:32:21]. I don't know any other way of being, so I can't really say.

Speaker 2: It seems very innate in you. You said even from the beginning you were concerned about the whole and you saw things that spoke, so it seems very ... when you look at what offering to the year people that you have, I mean, it is about giving respect and reciprocation, and even when I walked in here, one of your first sentences was only downed wood. And no treading lightly. But that's in your DNA. If you looked in the mitochondria of your cell, I'm sure there's maternal instinct in there and it's huge, and that's interesting, because you didn't necessarily have the specific role model.

Speaker 3: I always look at the world because of the kind of symbolism I use, I look at things and people in these kind of archetypes. And I definitely feel like the earth mother type of person. I have friends that are like that too. Some of us are and some of us aren't, and definitely I'm that. And I always first caught that when I was a kid. I've been like that always, yeah.

Speaker 2: Right, so let's talk about ... I'll come out of the heavy for a little bit. [crosstalk 00:33:39]

Speaker 3: Unaffected, that's fun. Nobody ever wants to talk to me about this stuff.

Speaker 2: So we talked about how you started making figures out of sticks, and if I were to say tell me about what it was like when you made that first piece, and you could have made others before, but when you made that first piece and went, "Oh, this is my first piece as a self-realized, this is what I need to do. This is me in here." So talk to me a little bit about when you did that and when this is.

Speaker 3: Well, it was actually after I got that [inaudible 00:34:20] wood. Remember the first time I told you a friend of mine had this wood. I made these two pieces, and they were part of a greater series that wasn't out of wood, and I can't remember specifically except they just said what I wanted them to say. They were simple and pure and direct.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 3: It was just from then I just kept going back to the wood. And over the years I've gotten to be a better carver. People have asked me occasionally, "Can you make this piece" that's like 15 years old, 20 years old. I couldn't make it even if I wanted to now. I love it. It's like saying, "Hello, old friend." But it's just not the same anymore.

Speaker 2: Right. You can't be 13 again. You can't be whatever again, but you love and respect what was.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So I don't remember specifically. I just knew it captured what I wanted it to capture. I kind of got onto that, and it became a style later years along. It wasn't like a conscious decision. It was just that it was just how I made this. This is my language. This is my visual language. There it is. What's funny is I'm so a words person, but I always look for how not just people, but how everything communicates without them. Animals, anything with anything animal, I'm there. [inaudible 00:36:01] but they can't use words, but they totally have languages.

Speaker 2: Oh, I know.

Speaker 3: And then to find the connection between, like I went to Hawaii this summer and I saw a seahorse and he came up to the top of the thing and he was looking down, and then he looked up and I just saw his eyes, and we had a moment. And if I said that to somebody who wasn't in touch with this kind of stuff, they'd be like, "You need to lay off the whatever." But if you're tuned into it, there's a million languages out there that aren't between people. And so I think that's what I'm looking for is I think everybody has that innate sense to tune in, but you've got to start with what it's saying in you and come out with it. But again we don't encourage that in a lot of most places. We're kind of, "Who are you to sing? Who are you to whatever? Let's judge and pick the best one." One of the best things I ever heard was, "If Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, [inaudible 00:37:08]..." No, not her, she's [inaudible 00:37:12]. Who is that one, she sang, "Bobby McGee".

Speaker 2: Janis Joplin?

Speaker 3: Janis Joplin, went on America's Got Talent they would get voted off. So it's interesting.

Speaker 2: So here's the question. When you self-identified, I'm an artist, or were kind of going in that direction, were you things that made you inhibited from continuing to do it? You had the support of your parents, so that's different, but-

Speaker 3: Well, no, my dad didn't want me to be an artist. I mean, he was supportive when I was growing up as a kid, but he trained in art much of a vocational high school in Cleveland to be an artist, but then he ran off and joined the Navy. And he didn't believe he could make a living as an artist, and he didn't believe I could either. So I was always inhibited about that. But then me being who I am, I was like, "I'm going to show him!" Right? I'm going to do it anyway. So yeah, but I still worry about it. You just don't know. It's like the razor's edge. We walk on the razor's edge when you're freelancing.

Speaker 2: So do you look ahead and think, "Now what?" Or do you let it come to you, or how does evolution happen in your work? Because I know these aren't what you started with.

Speaker 3: Well, so I can give you a really specific. This piece in the [inaudible 00:38:53] right there, that's part of a series called migration, and a couple years ago I got a DNA test, and I then discovered all these cool things that I didn't know.

Speaker 2: That's so you.

Speaker 3: And I saw, like my mom, before she died, she had these tall tales and never knew if they were really true or not. Like she said, "Yeah, we have Spanish blood," and I was like, "Really? That's so cool." But she didn't really ever elaborate on it. So it turns out I have a little bit of that. I have a little bit of Scandanavian, and anyway, long story short, I saw the migration of my family and it was during a time when migration issues were beginning to come into a head, and I saw the greater picture of migration around the planet, not just even of humans but of animals and how they migrate and what they bring with them, the food, the plants, things they bring with them.

Speaker 3: So I started this series called migration. As I made it, the things I carved changed. As I make it, the way I carve changes, because a certain thing needs to be added to it and then I need to figure out how to do it, so when I made this last piece, and so there was that, and then there was also this experience I had with a coyote for this particular piece. There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes in there, and it doesn't need to be known to other people when they see it, but it's all this stuff that goes in there. So I had this experience with a coyote. It was really amazing.

Speaker 3: And it was 25 years ago. There weren't as many people here. And I was with two other people showing them some [Hobokem 00:40:46] Indian eras up in these terraces on this hill. And there was [inaudible 00:40:52] and it was this really interesting spot in the desert. And there was a coyote jumping up in the air, straight up in the air. And it was like, what is he doing? So I walked over, and I saw he had his foot stuck in a steel jaw trap.

Speaker 2: You got him out?

Speaker 3: Yeah, we had to get him out. so we made this circle around him and there was one gentleman with us and another woman friend of mine, and we started walking closer to him and the man started talking to him, saying, "You need to lie down. You need to be calm."

Speaker 2: Talking to him?

Speaker 3: The coyote. He said, "You need to be calm so I can open up this trap." So we walked closer and the coyote started to calm down, stopped moving. We walked closer, and he laid down on all fours.

Speaker 2: Damn.

Speaker 3: He did.

Speaker 2: I believe you. It's just, that's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and so we walked up to him and he kept saying, "Be calm, be calm," and he opened the trap, and the coyote took his paw up. Then he stood up and he looked at each one of us, and then he took off. And so that's part of what's in there. And so I just read this, or actually just listened to this audiobook called Coyote America about the whole history of coyotes in this country. So that's in there. In Mexico when they, or in Latin America when they come up from the US, the immigrants come up in the US [crosstalk 00:42:28].

Speaker 2: Coyotes are people.

Speaker 3: They hire coyotes to guide them, and I've actually encountered people crossing the borders, like 30 people crossing the borders, quietly crossing the border, single file, with gallons of water, not saying anything, with a backpack and a gallon of water walking up the walk, and so this piece specifically has that in there. And that's how it works.

Speaker 2: That makes total sense to me, because as you discover, you're discovering you, but you're discovering all this history that came with you that culminates into you and then comes out into that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, because my story is universal. It's just like I'm one of many. I feel like I'm just telling the narrative of the time that I live in and who I am, and it's just-

Speaker 2: You're telling the narrative, like your mom did.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Right, because that's-

Speaker 3: That macro-maternal.

Speaker 2: But there is, like you're the ... if you think about it, think of all storytelling has involved. The oral tradition is ... right? But now I think it's coming out, because I think somebody, well obviously are seeing your art and feeling something or they wouldn't be buying it. And we wouldn't be here talking to you. I know nothing, and I saw it and I went, "She's one."

Speaker 3: How did you find me, by the way? So now let's be real.

Speaker 2: I just started, I was like, I have to do this. This is really funny. I think you'll find this interesting. High power corporate job, running huge telecom, right? But always this, I always had friends like this, artistic friends. And I just was running a huge account and the agency that I worked for lost the account. And so they let a bunch of us go, and I'm not worried. I could find another job tomorrow, and I thought, well, I'm 51 now. While I have this time, I'm going to do these things that have been running around, right?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And this was one of them, and so I had a conversation with one of the artists that was at his opening in Atlanta, and I had a conversation with him and I said there, there needs to be this bridge, this invitation, this open forum for people to find this and let it out, whatever it is. So once we had that conversation I went home that night, and I just started looking at galleries and people and just pulled them up. And there was something, if you asked me, I couldn't enumerate it, but I just know when I see the work, I'm like, that person, that person, that person.

Speaker 3: That's so cool.

Speaker 2: I can't even ... there's Tucson, San Francisco, New York, versus New York, and what's interesting is some of the people I didn't even know where they were. Most of them are in Atlanta.

Speaker 3: Really.

Speaker 2: Yeah, there were two that I picked at a Nashville gallery, thinking they live in Atlanta. I'd rather them go, but and I tried not to worry about gender, race, geography, because then I'd be ... I was like, it's just the art. I just want to see the communication. So yours was one that I went, yes.

Speaker 3: I'm honored.

Speaker 2: But it's funny because I'm not anyone that should be ... I have no credentials in the art world, but I feel like this is such an important thing for people, because I think there's so many people that have something, I think, and then they wait or they don't ever.

Speaker 3: Yeah, they wait. That's the thing. My husband's waiting, and I keep going, stop waiting.

Speaker 2: Well, I'll give you this. Universally maternal and when I gave birth, I have a little girl. In 2007 they found a brain tumor at the brain stem, and so it was a race whether I was going to have her, or whether the brain stem would close the brain stem blood flow to my head and she would be born, but I would be ... so she was born, and then I had to go through all this radiation and eight months of a feeding tube, eye patch, blah blah blah. And when I was done up in this surgery and by this, all this stuff, it was very intricate, I went back to my house and I thought, "Okay, people go through these things and their life is transformed." No it's not. You go right back to the same room you came from and your life is right there waiting for you to pick up where you left off. It's up to you to do it. And so everybody kept saying what's your lesson? My lesson is don't wait for the lesson, because that's what everybody thinks. It's like, I need to wait for this moment. No you don't, because you're going to miss.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's just some people that are wired like that though. They know that, and they just go, yeah.

Speaker 2: So what is it that made you not wait, and made me wait?

Speaker 3: Well, maybe-

Speaker 2: And it's more rhetorical, I don't expect you to solve the world right here.

Speaker 3: Quite frankly, I raised myself, because I didn't have parents around a lot. So I just did what I did, because that's what I do. Not always doing it the right way, either. I mean, I made a lot of mistakes and still do.

Speaker 2: So let's talk about that, because I think people put brush to paper or pick up, and then they abandon it. So what makes you stay? You said a while ago, I didn't know what I was doing. That's okay. That's great, as a matter of fact, because I think if you lead with technique, it can get in the way. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Speaker 3: Well, I think first of all for me my path as an artist is really different than what you're taught to do in college. I didn't take an academic path, and even now people who have taken that path might dismiss what I do, or might not, because I don't have credentials. I have a BFA, but I don't have fancy credentials. Nothing about what I have done is especially fancy. I mean, it's just I just do what I do. I don't pay a lot of attention to trends in the arts. I never have. I don't want to. I don't want to know. In fact sometimes I have to consciously not, though just nowadays I'm kind of more interested, but I don't want to be involved with it. It's not what drives me.

Speaker 3: So I just realized a while ago that what I do is I communicate through my art, and that's just how it is, and now when other artists ask me or I talk to them and they're starting out, or they waited and they're starting out again, I say, what is it you want to communicate? Not do you want a gallery? Not do you want this. I say what is it that you want to say with your art? And then who is the audience that you want to speak to? Because none of the rest I think matters. And if you know that about yourself as an artist, I think it helps you to stay focused and not get distracted by what you should or shouldn't be doing.

Speaker 2: Couldn't have penned it better. Yes, agreed. So what would you say, if you had to use words, what would you say to people that were reading about you, and we were going down this thing, you know, the first thing you make might not be what you wanted to do or say, and you don't know if maybe you look ... what would you say to those people who were thinking that they want to try something, but they haven't yet?

Speaker 3: I would say take the genuine away from it. It's not really time for that, when you're starting out especially. It's not time for that, and I think what even happens with me sometimes is when I make something, I actually have to walk away from it sometimes for a while before I can really see it, because there's so much in there, all that stuff I put in that piece.

Speaker 2: That's crazy, what's in there.

Speaker 3: It's probably got too much. But you know what ends up happening is I put it all in there, and then I step away and I look at the narrative of what it actually is. And then I give it a really simple title, and oftentimes people see that in there. I mean, it's a visual thing and people bring whoever they are to it. It's not a finished product until whoever is looking at it looks at it.

Speaker 2: It takes that story and-

Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what I would say to somebody, too. You might think only, I failed at this or this is not what it was supposed to be, but what you have to realize is this is your offering and it's only the beginning of the story. Whoever else encounters it will add to that, unless, I guess if it's a really personal thing they don't want to share it, because a lot of people who are creative don't want to share their work, but for me it's always a communication thing.

Speaker 2: So you want someone to take it.

Speaker 3: I want it to ... this is how I communicate with them. I'm not a talker, I'm not a writer. I mean, I write a little bit because I have to, but I'm not a person that goes on Facebook and emotes a lot. That's not me. This is-

Speaker 2: I've looked around for you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm on Facebook. I just don't really, that's not me. And I don't have a problem with other people doing it at all, but I communicate through my art.

Speaker 2: So let's say this piece is finished and you have an opening. I'm just making crazy. You have an opening and somebody buys it and they're getting it and they're walking away with it. You feel...?

Speaker 3: It depends. Sometimes I'm just, yay! And other times I'm slightly attached and more than I know.

Speaker 2: Do you want them to know what it is you kind of want, or do you just let it go?

Speaker 3: You know, I have to let it go, because I don't know where it's going to live. But I have had people say to me, this really wonderful thing, and that is that they look at my piece and they see it, and then they look at it again and they see something else. And it keeps talking to them. That's the best compliment. If somebody's living with something and it continues to have a conversation with them, then that's the best.

Speaker 2: Have you had the opposite where you've seen your piece go into somebody's hands that you didn't think they saw what they had?

Speaker 3: Sure.

Speaker 2: Like, oh this is going to be great above the couch.

Speaker 3: Sure, and I have to do that. I can't, especially if I'm going selling something [inaudible 00:54:15], I don't know where it goes. I have to be detached. Honestly, it is a product. And I do make my living this way, so I have to be realistic about it too.

Speaker 2: Well, cave drawings were left on the cave walls.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Is there anything that you wish for people who aren't artists or don't even identify with even that term yet or don't even need to worry about that, going back to the question I asked you about what would you say to people who were struggling with a voice or something they want to say, and they don't think they'll last in?

Speaker 3: I would say listen to your inspiration. I guess I remember having that conversation with a friend, well I'm going online and [inaudible 00:55:17] very young artist, and I just said, you have it all inside of you. You just have to listen to your own voice, your intuition will tell you. But it's hard for us to find that in this world that we live in with all the information out there coming in so quickly.

Speaker 2: Why is it so hard to find? I agree with you.

Speaker 3: Well, because there's just too much information. So much distraction. When I started doing this little body of work that I'm working on right now, I had just finished a bunch of orders and the real product wanted them stuck, and honestly it took me about 10 days to just get to the point I had to draw, I had to read, I had to think. I mean, I had to just ponder and quiet my brain down to get to that place. And that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it's like boom, boom, boom. But this time it really, I was really shifting gears and it was interesting. So yeah, I think in this world we live in I really actually worry about the place for creativity, if there's room for it. People are making room for it.

Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is really a timely project because I see what's happening with my niece, and she's a really cool kid. She's really smart. She's 14, and she's really talented. But there's not any, I mean my brother's trained as an actor, so he got the theater thing going with her, but there's no visual stuff, no visual arts in her ... she lives in Arkansas. There's none of that. They don't do that, and they don't emphasize it and it's not important. And you know, I think she's lucky she has her dad, because he is a creative guy, but I think for a lot of kids that's not being cultivated and it's really how people solve problems, regardless of whether you're an artist or not. I mean, Einstein was creative. He'd have to be able to solve problems by taking these sort of intuitive leaps.

Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. There's just so many things you said I love. Hope that's all right. [inaudible 00:57:42] Because I would never know that [crosstalk 00:57:47] That is my wake up at school naked dream.

Speaker 3: Do you want to check?

Speaker 2: No, no. I did it a minute ago to make sure the red light was on. And I charge it like crazy, it's like my [inaudible 00:58:01]. But no, you've given so much feeling-wise, and now I even see differently knowing, but even before that I saw.

Speaker 3: That's really cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's just something. There's just something. And then what I also thought was interesting, and this is just me, is the way the perspective is on your people, and then a lot of things are coming out of this. I was like, oh she walked to the course as she sees it. It's all right there probably in front of her, but then it's down to what they use. So I won't get that as a forest of your work, just because of the way I saw it. I loved that picture of you standing in the forest. You looked happy and like you belonged. I just loved it. It was a little picture on I think your website.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. It's a little bit old now, but I just still love it. I still put it up there because I love it. I love it too. And I wish I had more different kinds of work in here right now.

Speaker 2: But this is what I needed. This is what I need. That, you have in droves right there.

Speaker 3: So are you going to use pictures of finished pieces, you think, in your book?

Speaker 2: I think so. I think if I remember that I'm not just on a personal journey, that I want this to communicate to a lot of people so that it gets, I think they'll want to see the end work, but it's interesting. I think the end work of people who are established like you and the other artists that are [inaudible 00:59:26] can be daunting, because if I want them to pick up the pen, the brush, the clay, the wood, and they only see this, my first piece isn't going to look, or maybe ever look anything like as refined and beautiful and perfect. And so I want to make sure they see that, and this is going to seem weird. I want you to get pictures of her hands. I love her hands.

Speaker 4: I want to get right up on you. I love your ... you've got such a welcoming face and you're-

Speaker 3: I feel like, so shy.

Speaker 4: No. [crosstalk 01:00:02]

Elizabeth: No. [crosstalk 01:00:08] Anyway, you keep talking.

Tina: But that's what I was saying is I think people need to see, like you were so cute about it, "I need to clean up my studio." I was like, "No, no, no!" I think that's what people need to see. One of the artists, the guy that painted that eight-foot bear painting, he paints in a room that's probably that big, and he's giant. He's a giant person, but he just has this little-

Elizabeth: He's a giant person.

Tina: But I think people need to see, they don't need a beautiful white, pristine studio that's 2000 square feet and perfect lighting.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I agree. And for me it's more like, my studio, I look around here a lot, so I want it to be cool for me to look at too, because I have certain ways I organize things, like in all those little drawers, I have little found objects that I use. I know where they are, and if I don't do that, if I don't keep it super organized, then I'll be like, "Where's the hammer?" I mean, because it gets officially at certain points it gets every surface is covered. And it's like, when I'm in a certain phase, it's very cluttered.

Tina: Yes.

Elizabeth: So it does get like that, but I just happen to be in this phase right now where I was like, "Well, I'm just going to sort of wrap this up, more so that I could get rid of the dust so I could be in here with you."

Tina: It's funny, when I walked in here, I was like, wow, is she organized. Because it's the brushes in the cans and the brushes are here and the little ones are there, and I love the pegboard, that it's like that.

Elizabeth: That is my wood table, and that's my painting table.

Tina: Of course, wood table, like you're very, and up there was like the big ones are in this bucket.

Elizabeth: But you know, you kind of have to do that because you want to be efficient about your time and because otherwise it's ... I mean, I really spend a lot of time in here, so it's like in your kitchen. It's basically like a giant kitchen. You want your spoons over here, your pans over there, you know.

Angela: It's access.

Tina: Yeah, it's funny, the way you have other too, there's something about birch that I love. I have birch logs. So I live in Atlanta on the east coast, so I ordered them.

Elizabeth: Oh, they're in the same family as aspen.

Tina: Yes. Like this big, and I ordered 10 of them and I hung them from the wall in my bedroom about this far out from the wall so when the dogs walk in and move them, I feel like I go to sleep in them. I love it, I love it.

Elizabeth: Oh, how cool.

Tina: And my little girl always sleeps in my room, and she's like, it's calm in here. I like the woods. See? Right. But there's something, I think you have a natural braveness to you. Once people have their own braveness and realize they have it, I think it's just innate.

Elizabeth: You know, it's not, because certain things I'm not brave about, but certain things-

Tina: But certainly is with this.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think I am. Like I said, I just have to shut all the voices out that-

Tina: How do you do that? How do you do that, and how does one do that?

Elizabeth: Well, I don't know how I do it, but I know that I remember working on films when I was younger, and I worked on the sets, and I was a set dresser, so I put things together, moved furniture, put sets together, make them look like somebody lived in a room or if it was a police station or whatever, and there were a lot of men in those groups. Not very many of them were doing what I was doing. And I remember realizing that I had to just get hyper-focused about what I was doing, and just think about the task environment and I depended on that. And in fact what I do, which when I'm doing the wood, I don't ... I'm anti-social. I am really dirty when I get done working. I'm covered with dust. I've been in this bubble with this helmet on and earphones and I just really like, tend to turn down invitations at that time and I just stay focused because I do get distractions, and that's how I do it. I don't know if it's healthy.

Tina: as you're describing it, I'm literally paralleling it to birth, and you're in this room and in this sawdust and all that stuff is, not to be gross, but like the after birth, and that's like you're birthing something. Right?

Elizabeth: It is like that.

Tina: As you were talking, I'm like, oh, she's going through the birth process. And it makes sense because this is the raw part where you're extracting that from the wood, you know?

Elizabeth: That's such a lovely way to think about it.

Tina: Well, there's your mom in there. I covered everything. Well, there's imagery as you were talking about, oh, she's like you said, bubble, and [inaudible 01:05:22].

Elizabeth: And I'm sweating too.

Tina: She has this little newborn not colored yet, not finished.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's really lovely. I like that.

Tina: Universally maternal. Like it's just good, it just fits. I like it. And I'm seeing when I look at those, those didn't come, they weren't that pretty when they were born, because we have to take them out of us. So I won't [inaudible 01:05:51] too much longer, but this is so amazing. I love this.

Elizabeth: Oh, good, I am so [crosstalk 01:05:55].

Tina: So you go up there where we were [inaudible 01:05:57], and you bring down ... do you need to get that?

Elizabeth: No, I'll just turn it off.

Elizabeth: Okay, [inaudible 01:06:13].

Tina: After this phone, you're going to be online [crosstalk 01:06:21]. Yeah, I'm going to give you to Angela in just a minute, and you're going to do just what you told me, cut out the noise and just let her take it, because she's really good. So if you go in there and you find the birth father, the wood that you want, and then you bring it here and then tell me about that. Tell me what happens when you go from what you found to this stage.

Elizabeth: Well, so you saw it all up there. It's up there drying in the wind. It's really a pain in the butt to get it upstairs. And then I don't really look at a piece of wood generally and go, oh, this speaks to me. I know what I'm going to make because all the wood's pretty standard. It's more aspen's a pretty straight wood. Sometimes I want a curve, so I'll pick a curved piece, but other than that it's not like each piece of wood speaks to me and tells me what it's going to be. I have the wood, and I also have a lot of found objects, and so the found objects sometimes speak to me. And they have, they become part of the narrative and I'll do a rough sketch sometimes.

Elizabeth: Other times I won't really sketch a lot to figure out new things, how a kind of animal form's going to be. And then I take the wood and I just start shaping it. I cut the logs on the band saw. And then I'll cut out rough forms, and then I shape them. I just felt thunder back here. And then I use that tool that's hanging there, which is like a rotary tool that I carve with, and it has different bits that you put on it. So I use that to shape all the little pieces which you can see over on the table, that one's a little tiny component. And then I start putting them, I know for the most part what I think that the piece is going to be, but when I start putting it together, things change.

Tina: And you let that happen.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Tina: You're not so rigid that you-

Elizabeth: Yeah, I don't ... it's not like I do a really little drawing and then build it. I do a drawing, have these ideas, I try to go, I get them down really quickly, and they're very simple drawings. They're not fancy. And then I start building and as I build, I say oh, that doesn't really look the way I wanted it to or it's too crowded or that material really needs this element added to it to create more of a visual narrative story, and sometimes it's about the texture or the color. I've got these pieces over here of that green [crosstalk 01:09:18].

Tina: Love it, yes.

Elizabeth: It's like a puzzle. Oh my God, I know exactly what I'm going to do with that, and it's like the whole piece is just-

Tina: Bam.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Other times it's not. You just let it, it sort of just evolves a little bit. And I think it's going to be one story and the story sort of changes a little bit, sort of in the same vein but-

Tina: Do you make pieces sometimes that you're like, this just didn't work. It's not what I want to say? Do you make a piece all the way through and then go, eh?

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Tina: And what do you do with that? And that's okay.

Elizabeth: Yeah, a lot of times I'll just rework it. I'll go, I wasn't done with that. I thought I was done with it, but I need to go back.

Tina: More to say, different thing to say.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it needs more information.

Tina: No, that's good, because again, I'm trying to always ask and prompt you from not an artist, I'm looking for ways. It's okay that you make pieces that aren't exactly right, but you keep working them. That's the encouragement I want people to get out of this. The first thing you make or the third thing, the 103rd, it might not be [inaudible 01:10:28]. And so what if we didn't say a perfect sentence, we stop speaking?

Elizabeth: Exactly. So as a writer, are you trying to encourage writers also, or more visual?

Tina: Anything. Anything. What's interesting though, in picking you guys, which this is all visual. This book is all visual. I think all of you are vastly different, so one guy takes photographs of animals and then paints around. You do this. Calvin Maw does this particular-

Elizabeth: I know his work is so cool.

Tina: Right? We're going east tomorrow.

Elizabeth: I want to go. Is that okay?

Tina: And then this other person actually Angela knows, he will be walking somewhere and he'll see an old tire in a field, and he'll go back to his studio and make a table, high end architecture furniture, and he'll then put it on his website, a picture and what the end result was. And so as long as, and again, I didn't know what I was looking for, but I knew it when I saw it. It was just an awful thing, but you have it and he has it. It's just something where I feel like you are honest and true to what you want to say. Like, oh, yes.

Elizabeth: That's so cool.

Tina: Well, because there were a lot of artists people would suggest when the gallery initially, you should look at, and I'm like, don't. Nothing against the artist, just not the thing I'm looking for. It's not the thing. But what's interesting is as I'm getting to learn you ten, there are such similarities I didn't know. I just didn't have a classical, and that was one of the criteria. I didn't know that when I picked you. You just all happened to fit it, so it's really kind of freaky.

Elizabeth: Well, you know, when we sent out the query, the first query, I showed my husband. He goes, "Wow. That's you." It was so weird, because nobody has ever asked me-

Tina: And I didn't know that. All I saw was that. Right? [crosstalk 01:12:31] No, no, I'm saying I saw her work and I wanted to invite her, but I didn't know she met all the criteria. But I've only asked 11 people, and 10 of you fit the criteria. So that's why I feel like I'm just going to go with it. I'm going to let it come out as it comes out.

Elizabeth: That's very exciting.

Tina: Anything else that you're thinking of like this is important, or ... and if there's not I mean, I've definitely gutted you today.

Elizabeth: No, my mind goes blank unless you ask me stuff.

Tina: No, and I think that's fair, and I think that's the right answer too, actually, because some people try to formulate something and it's not genuine.

Elizabeth: You know, I have my little artist statement and all that stuff, that kind of specific information.

Tina: I think the journey we did of you birthing that and stuff with your mom and like, yeah, I think that might be what, because this does speak, and it's funny because I think if you were to take it from a commercial lens, it would be, you would get that surface stuff, but then when you dig under, you're like, oh, this is common for your whole existence, all the way.

Elizabeth: It's nice, it's nice. Only because I just redid my website a while ago and I just decided I never really talk too much about my life in my bio, but this time I wrote a little bit more about my story. And I thought well, I'm kind of old now. So it was like, I do actually have a story that I'd like to tell, because you get to a certain age. What?

Tina: You have an amazing story.

Elizabeth: Well, it's just it's my story, but it does inform who I am way more than I realized when I was younger. You know, when you're a young artist you want to be a certain way, and you try to distance, and you look at all the other artists that came before you and think, oh they were so unique, they were so that. And you kind of realize as you're going along that their story was way more complicated and different than I'll ever know. And mine's the same way. It's just a story. We were all born like everybody else.

Tina: And what you just said is definitely part and parcel. So your story isn't the reason to do or not do.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and I think you're completely right about the creative impetus that we're all born with because I've often felt that way, and it definitely was what I thought when I used to teach the little guys.

Tina: Yes, and maybe that was a gift, you teaching guitar.

Elizabeth: Yeah, just while I was in the fence, just you said it earlier. It just fits. Many, not one.

Tina: Okay, so I'm going to turn you over to Angela.

Elizabeth: Okay.

Angela: I have questions for you though.

Elizabeth: Oh, you do? [crosstalk 01:15:34]

Angela: I see, I know there's a name for the hand, right, but I see these hands everywhere. Has that always been a symbol that you have identified with or been attracted to?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I love it, and you know, so you know the thumbs up?

Angela: I think that's the name for it, right? So tell me about that.

Elizabeth: Well, it's just it's a [inaudible 01:16:06] symbol, and it's kind of a Catholic symbol. In the Jewish religion and in the Muslim religion and I believe in India.

Angela: Sorry, India. I guess I recognize this symbol.

Elizabeth: So I like that universally I can personally work with that hand. Right, and these things all along, [inaudible 01:16:28].

Angela: The female spirit and the-

Elizabeth: Well, no, all those little metal pieces.

Tina: The foil.

Elizabeth: Are called milagros, and that's the Spanish word for miracle. They're charms that they use as offerings in the Catholic religion all over Latin America and in Greece and in Italy, and when somebody has an injury or they accomplish something or say they break their arm, they take an arm milagro and they offer it to the saint, and they put it on a saint. So these are all, that's what those all are, and I've just been kind of fascinated with them and the idea of you know, making this offering. So I've collected those for a long time. So that is a part of that too.

Tina: Totally.

Angela: Do you feel like your artwork is indeed like an offering? Do you feel that they're that ... I mean, obviously they're that personal. I don't know how you part with them. That was always my problem when I made something with my hands, was that to transfer that to somebody and to think of it in a way where you're making a living off of it, those are your babies, kind of. You know, that question, what do you think when somebody takes it, buys it? So are there any pieces that you definitely would not ever give away?

Elizabeth: Not really, except the first two pieces that I carved. I mean, I have a-

Tina: Do you have those here?

Angela: Do you have them? [crosstalk 01:18:04]

Elizabeth: But I don't. They're in my house, but I have a stag that I made that I just decided I had to take out of circulation because I'm in love with it, just a little animal piece, but I don't keep very many pieces of my own. I don't have a very big house. I have lots of art from other people. Well that piece actually, that's called the alchemist.

Angela: Yeah, I love that.

Elizabeth: He's my studio kind of guy.

Angela: Very cool. Does he protect your environment? Yeah.

Elizabeth: Yeah, he's not going anywhere.

Angela: Yeah, very cool.

Tina: Could we, I mean, I know it wouldn't be 100% authentic, but get some action shots? I mean, look at that helmet-y thing.

Angela: Is that just for protection?

Elizabeth: It's my space, tell them to keep the sawdust because [crosstalk 01:18:52] an allergy to it, so I actually do a double mask now.

Angela: Oh, got you. [crosstalk 01:18:59]

Elizabeth: So this thing right here is, it has a fan.

Angela: Oh, wow, that's serious.

Tina: Yes, it is serious.

Elizabeth: It just keeps the dust off. But I wear headphones. I mean, I have to, they're so attractive.

Angela: Can you put that on for just a second?

Tina: You know we're going to-

Angela: Your antler is lining up perfectly with your helmet on the wall, in the back.

Elizabeth: It's actually, because I usually have earphones too.

Tina: Yeah, there you go.

Angela: Yeah, there. So what kind of music do you listen to when you work? Is music always pumping, or do you sometimes work in the silence?

Elizabeth: I listen to audiobooks, because you know why I listen to audiobooks? Because it's really loud. When this is really loud, I have an air filter, I have an air filter, my grinder, just the noise is not fun. And if I listen to music it doesn't distract me enough. So years ago I started listening to audiobooks. And they're not necessarily always like great literature. I kind of break it up. Sometimes I'm just listening to mysteries or something, but then what I'm doing when I finish the carving, because really this is manufacturing. When I'm carving all these little components-

Angela: Yeah, it's a process, yeah.

Elizabeth: It's manufacturing, so I know what I'm doing, and I don't need to give it a lot of intellectual attention. But then when I get that done and I'm doing the quiet stuff, I'll listen to music or no sound. Music, or no sound, and the music really varies. I have Pandora so I kind of put it on a-

Angela: A station?

Elizabeth: A mix or, yeah.

Angela: I want you to lean over like you were, because-

Tina: Yeah, that was awesome.

Angela: I know, it was really neat.

Elizabeth: What was it?

Angela: You just kind of leaned over on the table a little bit, like engaging us a little bit more. [crosstalk 01:20:54]

Tina: You know, one thing that's interesting to me too about, there's a book, I love reading. Words person. There's a back brain and a front brain, so you must have a very powerful back brain.

Elizabeth: So it's not the same as left and right, right?

Tina: No.

Elizabeth: What's a back brain?

Tina: You have a brain that processes, like you and I are having a conversation, but in your head, her head, and my head, your back brain is solving other things or thinking about other things. You have a very powerful back brain because music doesn't do it for your back brain. You have to have a book, because your front brain is doing something that's mechanical, but you need a ... and that's why they let kids with attention chew gum and stuff. So when you said that I was like, oh, her back brain is strong.

Elizabeth: Yeah, well [inaudible 01:21:42].

Angela: I want you to look at Tina, but then I want you to look back at me for just ... yes, that's what I want right there. I love your personality. [inaudible 01:21:53] Tilt towards Tina just a little bit more. Yeah, there's just this glint in your eye that is just so beautiful.

Tina: She's good, go with it. That apron...

Angela: I got it.

Tina: Okay, because I was just making sure because I love that.

Angela: I love that shot upstairs of you in the doorway of your [inaudible 01:22:05] because I just love-

Elizabeth: I'm going to stop that.

Tina: Just until you ask a question.

Elizabeth: Which makes me nervous.

Angela: Do you collect anything other than, do you collect? Are you attracted to certain objects? I don't know, I'm just wondering if you're-

Elizabeth: Hands.

Angela: What is it?

Elizabeth: Hands.

Angela: Hands, and then [inaudible 01:22:28] anything else?

Elizabeth: Hearts, like corazon.

Tina: Oh Isabelle Allende, I love her. [crosstalk 01:22:35] Yes, or we'll be locked up here.

Elizabeth: It is so bright.

Tina: Because of the white, probably. Oh, yeah, look at the frames.

Elizabeth: I love the sky and the ... yeah.

Tina: I could probably sit and look out, or-

Angela: How long have you been in the studio?

Tina: There you go. Don't move.

Angela: That's the shot right there. Like we can go home after this, Tina. Actually I'm going to back up just a little bit more.

Elizabeth: Be careful because it's steep.

Angela: I know. I looked down there and got a little-

Elizabeth: I know.

Angela: Brush, there.

Tina: I'll make sure, that's a good idea actually because she gets all into her work and she might like-

Angela: I just want to see what it looks like. Just bring your chin down a little bit, kind of like you're looking in that bowl right there. Now look at me with your eyes. Yes. And then I'm going to get a little closer.

Elizabeth: Do something about my chicken neck.

Angela: Oh, no. [inaudible 01:23:36] she writes about the neck and that was her most self-conscious area was the neck.

Tina: I know, she wore turtlenecks everywhere.

Angela: Right, and she's ... but it's a comedy piece. It's absolutely hilarious.

Tina: I think it's called something neck.

Angela: It might be.

Elizabeth: There's a little thing sticking up back there, so just be careful when you're back there. [crosstalk 01:23:56]

Angela: All right.

Elizabeth: Oh, sorry.

Angela: So you can look at me and smile or you can look up or you can ... why don't you look up at this drain spot right here where it meets that roof right there? Okay, we'll do another one where you look across over here at the very bottom. I like that one too.

Tina: Yeah, me too.

Angela: All right, do me one favor. Keep that pose but take your right arm and just put it on the [inaudible 01:24:33].

Elizabeth: Down a little lower?

Angela: Yeah, like that.

Tina: You were made for this.

Angela: Okay, I think I got it.

Tina: One thing I would love to have, [inaudible 01:24:34]-

Angela: On the piece?

Tina: Yeah, because her hands are amazing. Look at her. What? A raw one, yeah, I think a raw one would be cool, like her picking or ... because that's that first step.

Angela: Right. I'm surprised that you don't see, like you're not walking and you don't ... I'm surprised you're not taken by a piece and think, oh that needs to be a lake. You know? Because-

Elizabeth: Well, no, I definitely do that [inaudible 01:25:15].

Angela: You start with a drawing, always.

Elizabeth: No, not always. Sometimes I know what I'm going to do and I don't need to draw it. [inaudible 01:25:31] or they're going to be certain [inaudible 01:25:35], then these are all ... I think my art [inaudible 01:25:39] and sometimes I want to have the perfect idea-

Tina: There you go.

Elizabeth: And then my found objects, I really do that too.

Angela: I love that room. [inaudible 01:25:56]

Elizabeth: You know, it is reminiscent of birch a little bit, I guess. I guess it's just [inaudible 01:26:07].

Angela: Yeah, I guess that's why I want us to notice that one and spend a little time on this.

Elizabeth: Yeah, this is my favorite [inaudible 01:26:22].

Angela: All right, look right at me. Cool. Great.

Tina: Fantastic. A-plus day.

Angela: Have a seat right here for me. I'm sorry, [inaudible 01:26:31].

Tina: I know, you couldn't pop it better, you know? I'm going to make sure you don't go to the edge.

Angela: Perfect. [inaudible 01:27:07]

Elizabeth: Well at first I got kind of [inaudible 01:27:07]. I was down in the basement, [inaudible 01:27:08]. A little thing up there in the print studio, so I went upstairs and there I was like-

Angela: Oh, you saw it and it was a love at first sight kind of thing?

Elizabeth: [inaudible 01:27:28]. It seemed like we were both working on films ten years later. I mean, I saw him around but I didn't ever really get to know him. And then 10 years later we were both living in a hotel and it was like [inaudible 01:27:51].

Angela: Just sit still.

Elizabeth: Sorry, I know I'm on it with the hand.

Angela: All right, dart your eyes over that way and then look back at me. Bring your chin down. That way just a bit, your whole chin. Yeah, there you go. Actually now look at me. Awesome. Let me get your [inaudible 01:28:15].

Elizabeth: So you guys are both from Atlanta?

Angela: Actually, just do what you were doing.

Tina: Yeah, you were talking.

Angela: When you talk you hold them together. Do you know that? And then you bring them up a little bit when you're-

Elizabeth: I talk with my hands a lot, don't I?

Angela: You do, you do. I'm getting it so bright.

Elizabeth: Are you both from Atlanta? [crosstalk 01:28:35]

Angela: It's hot like this, but the humidity is unbearable. The air is just really closed.

Elizabeth: It's going to be like that here soon enough [inaudible 01:28:47]. I'm glad you came now.

Tina: Now instead of-

Elizabeth: It's more cooler than the work, I would need [inaudible 01:28:54].

Tina: Does it affect your work?

Elizabeth: It kind of [inaudible 01:29:02].

Tina: I know, I went running yesterday in Beaufort, it's in North Carolina. And I had to stop a couple times, because it was just too...

Elizabeth: Yeah, I don't run a lot but I go like once or twice a week. And I've been going really slowly.

Tina: Yeah, I go really slowly too. [inaudible 01:29:22]

Angela: I love this shot. Okay. [crosstalk 01:29:26]

Elizabeth: No, we should not.

Tina: Not what we want. [inaudible 01:29:37]

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:30:05] is there an artist in San Francisco?

Speaker 6: Yeah. Calvin. Calvin's in San Francisco.

Speaker 5: Yeah, when you said that a minute ago, I didn't want to stop you from talking, but he said San Francisco.

Speaker 6: Okay. Good?

Speaker 5: Good.

Speaker 6: Good, [inaudible 01:30:15].

Speaker 5: Uh, I just liked the schools, because ...

Speaker 6: I know. I wonder if [inaudible 01:30:37] this just [inaudible 01:30:40] stuff for my Dad, [inaudible 01:30:43] out, but he had a car that my grandfather working with painting, I thought maybe you could turn some things, but this is, this is a dream space.

Speaker 5: Yeah, really.

Speaker 6: It's wonderful.

Speaker 5: The shop, it's wonderful.

Speaker 6: It is really a nice shop, I really like it. It's not the best shop I've ever been in [inaudible 01:30:59] though. Doesn't have a lot of venting-

Speaker 5: Venting, yeah. But-

Speaker 6: I love it. I [inaudible 01:31:05]-

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You have it all in a [inaudible 01:31:08]. Like in a little drawer.

Speaker 5: And you know, I love your curio little, and I love little things. Like I love all the little pieces that go into these. Just the- my favorite part are, I love the mail. [inaudible 01:31:27] watch you work, because-

Speaker 6: You know what, you what's good to, whoever shoots your work next, have them get the details, cuz you can't see it in the large- gray just like, are

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:31:36] I've actually got more details more than anything else, because, I don't know, they just have their own personality [inaudible 01:31:41]-

Speaker 6: Of course.

Speaker 5: And they have their, yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 5: And then [inaudible 01:31:53] it there [inaudible 01:31:53] the price? Is there above?

Speaker 6: Not specifically. [inaudible 01:32:08] way those pieces are narrative [crosstalk 01:32:08]. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 6: I think that really, that touches me.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And so that's kind of what I [inaudible 01:32:10]. Started keeping in back of it like, and just because I'm really interested to make sure, and connecting with the natural world, and using my intuition, and I think a lot of...that work was one of [inaudible 01:32:28].

Speaker 5: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 6: I think, I just noticed that they're-

Speaker 5: I know! I get the role the yardsticks, [crosstalk 01:32:31] We were wondering what this was, we were looking at your pictures and, I know, the detail. How did you, which was one it? It was this one. I mean, is this stenciled, is this hand-painted? I guess you painted that and then you kind of-

Speaker 6: It's painted.

Speaker 5: Or etched it?

Speaker 6: It's... yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And then the tin is our anti [inaudible 01:32:47] aspect. [inaudible 01:32:47] I used-

Speaker 5: I love that. Yeah. Is that [inaudible 01:32:47] from.~

Speaker 6: Yeah. I get it on Ebay, a lot.

Speaker 5: Do you?

Speaker 6: You guys need more water or cold drinks?

Speaker 5: [crosstalk 01:32:58] Good.

Speaker 8: I will. [inaudible 01:32:58] to work at.

Speaker 6: Okay. [inaudible 01:33:06]. No, it's so-

Speaker 5: How-

Speaker 6: Remember we tried to overcome the [crosstalk 01:33:11]-

Speaker 6: It's a combination of old critical and old yardsticks. Old yardsticks.

Speaker 5: Is there one that you want to get me, get as a whole? You want me to get as a whole?

Speaker 6: Oh [crosstalk 01:33:20]-

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:33:20] it just-

Speaker 6: These are antique cycle irons. [inaudible 01:33:35].

Speaker 5: Wow, okay.

Speaker 6: From old churches.

Speaker 5: Oh, wow.

Speaker 6: Old mission.

Speaker 5: I love these vases, yeah.

Speaker 6: [inaudible 01:33:42]. India.

Speaker 5: Very cool.

Speaker 6: I like it just like that. [crosstalk 01:33:51].

Speaker 5: I got it-

Speaker 6: No, no, no. I like it. But-

Speaker 5: Oh, not in a natural state? Yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 8: But these are my house colors that's why I like it.

Speaker 6: This one's going to be pretty settled, because I'm drawn to that calmness. Calmness is my favorite.

Speaker 5: Oh, my God, we might have to go back upstairs, just for one more. I'm not kidding, because the one in front of the door that I love, I didn't get one with your eyes open. See that-

Speaker 7: It's hard, huh? [crosstalk 01:34:15]. To do that.

Speaker 5: I thought the short file, that that one I love, that look right there that I... it was one where your eyes are open. Can we do one more? I'm sorry. I just [crosstalk 01:34:29]-

Speaker 6: No, no.

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:34:32]-

Speaker 6: [inaudible 01:34:34].

Speaker 5: Right. [inaudible 01:34:43][crosstalk 01:34:41][inaudible 01:34:41]

Speaker 8: No. I did look it up once and it wasn't... It was like-

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:34:53] that's you were sitting...

Speaker 8: I'm sorry

Speaker 5: I'd rather you look and get it, cuz I love that. I know, I just... I fin-

Speaker 8: It's actually nice up here from this [inaudible 01:35:14]

Speaker 5: That piece of hair. I love it, but we're going to give you the option of having them [inaudible 01:35:17] These two are looking more...I think you were looking more over here. [inaudible 01:35:31] And then turn your head a little... yep. Alright and then I'm gonna get one right up on you, so look right up.

Speaker 6: Camera?

Speaker 5: Move your head up like that, yeah. And then look right at me...

Speaker 5: Yes! Okay.

Speaker 8: Oh that white top...[crosstalk 01:35:51][inaudible 01:35:51]

Speaker 6: [inaudible 01:35:51] A lot of the head shots just sort of [inaudible 01:36:21]

Speaker 5: And then you go for [inaudible 01:36:25]

Speaker 8: [inaudible 01:36:29] so what happens next...

Speaker 6: So these are...This one just needs to have... I have to put something on the top of his face. You know, to put [inaudible 01:36:44] in here. And then we can see a little bit of painting on the body and this is gonna get some tin on it... old rusty tin. And then, these are being painted a pretty subtle color. The little metal [inaudible 01:37:00]part. So this is gonna be pretty subtle.

Speaker 8: Where is he going?

Speaker 5: Oh you know where they're going. I'm gonna do an art fair in the fall with [crosstalk 01:37:07]

Speaker 6: You know what I really like about this one is that it's [inaudible 01:37:18][crosstalk 01:37:21]

Speaker 8: Actually, I have a-I think it's British- it used to be a lamp, it's a horse. But his ears broken and I keep it cuz I'm gonna fix it at some point.

Speaker 6: It wasn't very hard to do. If you could get yourself a dremel? You can do it. Do you have a dremel?

Speaker 8: I was gonna say you have to show me one.

Speaker 6: It's really a pretty handy thing to have.

Speaker 8: Now finish, where's she going?

Speaker 6: [crosstalk 01:37:48] I'm doing an art fair in Colorado this summer, so I'm just starting to do new work for that. So it was a part of that list [inaudible 01:37:57]

Speaker 8: Well that's why I want everything [inaudible 01:38:03][crosstalk 01:38:03]

Speaker 6: If you want me to add you to my mailing list [crosstalk 01:38:04]. I don't send a ton of them, but when I have sales or if I have new work, I'll send it out. Cuz I have collectors all over the country because I've done art fairs for a while.

Speaker 8: And I'm fairly picky[inaudible 01:38:17]

Speaker 6: And the great thing is that, these little parts I do ship out. They're pretty easy to ship.

Speaker 8: I just love when you said that stamp was [inaudible 01:38:24]

Speaker 6: Another one that I'm gonna work on that's actually evolved to it's best will be similar to this, but it's not gonna have it's full arms. It's gonna hold a book filled with antique tin pipes [crosstalk 01:38:41] I've already done one, which is on my website.

Speaker 8: Oh is it the... It's Like yeah.

Speaker 5: Love it.

Speaker 8: Cuz I opened it and tried to see cuz of-I was like what is that noise...what is that.

Speaker 6: Yeah, with this new website they don't give you a lot of options to show detail pieces. So I should figure that out. [inaudible 01:39:03] It is part of what you need to see.

Speaker 8: Oh it's... yeah

Speaker 5: Yeah, the detail over the hat.

Speaker 8: [inaudible 01:39:10] Well it's hard. I imagine it's harder to get this, and then be able to [inaudible 01:39:17] you know...

Speaker 6: [inaudible 01:39:24] it happened.

Speaker 8: Have we named him yet?

Speaker 6: I do have a name for him but [inaudible 01:39:33][crosstalk 01:39:33]

Speaker 8: The horns are still probably like they were, those are [inaudible 01:39:38] positioning, no just the [inaudible 01:39:40]

Speaker 6: [inaudible 01:39:40] I have a name. I think I wanted [Aryellis 01:39:44] I don't know why the whole thing [inaudible 01:39:49]

Speaker 8: I like the gesture of these [inaudible 01:39:51]

Speaker 6: The painting is gonna be a new [inaudible 01:40:02] where it's gonna have a pattern around it ... [inaudible 01:40:07] Cuz it's sort of like that belt on the bottom there. And pretty subtle colors. I love em.

Speaker 8: And you already asked me if I had new art pieces. I'm thinking about these two pieces [inaudible 01:40:24]

Speaker 5: But you're still matching them?

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 5: I love it. I love it.

Speaker 8: I'm doing that part in August, so, I'm trying to get a body to sculpture at the end of August.

Speaker 5: I don't ... I'd like to go through whatever your channel is, not, you know, forever, but like what your requirements ... I don't like to try [inaudible 01:40:54][crosstalk 01:40:55] yeah, yeah. However you do that is how I'd like to do it. 'Cause I don't want anybody to feel like, you know ... I have ... I think I have one of Joe's, one of Bruce's ...

Speaker 8: Did you hear that Bruce fell?

Speaker 5: No. But he ended up ... he ... what's funny too ... I think it was maybe Bruce, put me on the phone with his wife 'cause he just couldn't [inaudible 01:41:21] It's funny how the men got ... Calvin was the same way. When he was married ... they're shy!

Speaker 8: Well, you know what? I showed my work at Calvin's gallery, but I don't show there anymore. He still owes me. That's how I learned about [inaudible 01:41:41] and someone always keeps saying "I saw that in his art show."

Speaker 5: Yeah. "It's in his things." That's how I usually put my expression, which is probably interesting. Well, I actually, let me put it in a different way around people. I like your ... you have boundaries that don't feel like walls.

Speaker 8: Right.[crosstalk 01:42:01]

Speaker 5: Like I feel like it steer ... is steering my attention as in your ...

Speaker 8: 'Cause I like talking to people about what I do and I love meeting new people. But, I ... sometimes I'm just shy in large groups and stuff like that because I really like myself a lot too. But ...

Speaker 5: Great! Well I'm good.

Speaker 6: Alright. Let me do one ...

Speaker 5: Oh, you're gettin' more perspective?

Speaker 6: Uh-huh. I really like that groove.

Speaker 8: [inaudible 01:42:31] Clair you can eat!

Speaker 5: Oh, I should've brought mine.

Speaker 8: We were just talkin' 'bout that, that glass and [inaudible 01:42:41]

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I could just sit and drink wine and eat all night.

Speaker 8: Yeah me too.

Speaker 5: Is that paint?

Speaker 8: Yeah, that's paint. Really like [inaudible 01:42:55] bronze.

Speaker 8: This piece is ... we had these tribal Indians there, the Mayoki Indians, and they had three villages, they were pretty strong in Mexico a long time ago, and they had this amazing Easter ceremony which was part traditional Mayoki and part Ameri-Christian, but they had, and part that ceremony, they had [inaudible 01:43:24] but it's something I've been going to see for a really long time, and the deer dances all night and the dancer [inaudible 01:43:35] and he did the most amazing dance but he'll [inaudible 01:43:42] and he does it all night so ...

Speaker 5: Wow that's cool.

Speaker 8: It's really cool...

Speaker 5: It really goes into the back. I love that.

Speaker 8: And the last time I went, at Easter time, he actually, definitely, took us into his trance with him. It was pretty cool. I was like "Wow!" It hasn't happened every time I've gone, but this dancer, it was very compelling.

Speaker 5: There was something in him.

Speaker 8: Yeah. I just wanna tune into that. I think it'd be so much richer to just tune into that. There were 50 other people on the Sea Horse Tour, and they're like "Look! Look at it!" And we're like "No. Shhh. Look at it, don't just ..." and then you see it. Because I was lookin' at it, and his little eyes just ... and I was like ...

Speaker 5: Are you okay?

Speaker 8: Yeah. It was [inaudible 01:44:35] we were shown research where they were saving them because they're endangered.

Speaker 5: Seahorses are?

Speaker 8: Yeah. 'Cause they were, you know, takin' us through the life cycles and everything and this was, I don't know, a week ago. And they wrapped 'em around and let you hold em. But this was right before that. This was like ... he just came up and it was like "Wow." [inaudible 01:44:59]

Speaker 5: I've only seen them in aquariums, I've never seen them in the wild.

Speaker 8: Right!

Speaker 5: I didn't know they were endangered.

Speaker 8: Yeah they are. They're breeding them there and then releasing them back out into the park, because they're so[inaudible 01:45:18]

Speaker 5: The leafy green ones. Have you ever seen a leafy dragon?

Speaker 8: Oh, they're like [inaudible 01:45:29] fish. Those?

Speaker 5: Yes. [inaudible 01:45:34] It's bad.

Speaker 8: I'm like that too, actually.

Speaker 5: We'll I'd like to keep tabs on ... yet to be named.

Speaker 8: Okay. Well [inaudible 01:45:44]

Speaker 5: I would love for you too do that. And, again, regular channels. I don't want you to feel encroached upon.

Speaker 8: Oh, not at all! It's just, you know, like I said, I'm trying to come up with a work for ...

Speaker 5: For your August show? Yeah. As a matter of fact, when I'd, bo ... Kyle Novak, I bought a piece or his work but I the gallery's gonna keep it for the show, so I didn't get it for two months.

Speaker 8: Well,[inaudible 01:46:12] it's not like a gallery show, because, you know, everything I haul there, I don't want to[inaudible 01:46:19] so I bring stuff that's to sell there. So, if I sell it before, it's alright. [inaudible 01:46:25] I usually [inaudible 01:46:32] before I [inaudible 01:46:34] tell people that I'm coming and also that I've got [inaudible 01:46:38]

Speaker 5: This was lovely. Thank you for doing it.

Speaker 8: Oh. Sure! My pleasure.

Speaker 5: I think we're gonna head back [inaudible 01:46:47] this was great. So the process now is, I have her [inaudible 01:46:55] and I put it in my computer right away 'cause I'm so afraid I'll lose it. I wanna have all the energies done by the end of June which I will. After tomorrow, I'll have three done and then there's seven more. And then, I'll start laying them, but I think I'm gonna write each one of yours singularly, like this is your ... look into this again and really focus back and stuff that I don't nomally ... and then just start writing sentences as it comes out, and then start ... and then when that rough draft is done, I'll send it to you. And then make sure that you feel like I've said some things that you like.

Speaker 5: And then, if you have suggestions, let me know. And then all of this will be put together as a rough draft, and then we'll see what happens.

Speaker 8: Alright. [inaudible 01:47:47]

Speaker 5: People are ... go "well, I can't!. I can't. Just do it!" Of all ages, you know, it's just not all, you know ...

Speaker 7: I think that's a beautiful idea. I don't ... it's very soothing to your public.

Speaker 5: It's ... to me, when you doing the right thing, the universe helps you. When you're, kind of, not a trusted ... point you back. And I've told you some of the freaky things that have happened ... I ...

Speaker 7: That's exactly how I feel. [inaudible 01:48:26] I've done that! [inaudible 01:48:26]

Speaker 5: Yes. Yes. I remember I was once VP for digital operations. Isn't that funny?

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 7: Sorry. I didn't mean to laugh at you like that.

Speaker 8: That's great.

Speaker 5: I've been in the whole business but it's, I'm actually really frustrated right now. I'm doing a million things that I've wanted to do before somebody else [inaudible 01:48:45] Shhh. Shhh. She's gonna say no!

Speaker 5: Yeah. This is my job right now.[inaudible 01:48:54]

Speaker 8: Well, it sounds like a full time job. I mean I think it's ...

Speaker 5: It's full time up here.

Speaker 8: Yeah. That's great!

Speaker 5: Ella's just like look! My Ella's like, she's like "Oooh I get the book!" [inaudible 01:49:05]

Speaker 5: Yeah. I love it.

Speaker 8: Oh that's great.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And she definitely has some of the background that precipitates the expression. But ... That's for sure. Anyway, thank you for the time [inaudible 01:49:23]

Speaker 8: So, are you guys ... wanna do like you have time for anything or ...

Speaker 5: We have a good hour, if not ...

Speaker 8: The contemporary it's across the street there [inaudible 01:49:42] anyway, he's like best friends and [inaudible 01:49:46]

Speaker 7: I know that whole area coming in ...

Speaker 8: Yeah, there's like a neat little shop to the left up the street out here, there's an area called the Five Points that's just like.

Speaker 7: Oh, it's like this little area in Atlanta called Five Points ...

Speaker 6: It's like how far from the walk ... from your street?

Speaker 8: Well, are you from around? I have walked. You could walk. It's like 8 blocks or something.

Speaker 7: Did you read this?

Speaker 8: It's an elaborate [inaudible 01:50:22]

Speaker 7: Okay. Oh okay. I saw your silverware had the face on it like that, my friend did that. I love that! [inaudible 01:50:28] I'm like eating and it's like "Oh!"

Speaker 5: I saw you taking a picture of that! [inaudible 01:50:28]

Speaker 7: I know it was awesome!

Speaker 6: When you were introducing, I think it was one of the first things you said, which I was like "universe of eternal". What was it, the hands like they're signs of protection ...

Speaker 8: And nurturing, and [inaudible 01:50:50] an offering. Yeah just ...

Speaker 6: Everything [inaudible 01:50:53]

Speaker 8: Yeah. They are 'cause. Do you have kids?

Speaker 6: I do actually.

Speaker 8: How old are they?

Speaker 6: They're 13 and a half and 10. [inaudible 01:51:03]

Speaker 8: You don't look old enough to have a 13 year old.

Speaker 6: Thank you! Oh, give me another hug! She would love this, like she would Audrey would loved to have come and listen to you talk, and she would have loved ... she's creative.

Speaker 6: I mean, [inaudible 01:51:20] also creative, but not in the same ways. Audrey wears her heart on her sleeve and she [inaudible 01:51:25] she's just not enough to create.

Speaker 5: I wonder if there's not something, 'cause you know ... I liked your commercial. I wonder if we could take the audio files and cut 'em up just to have, you know, to support so they could hear your voices, the voice sound.

Speaker 6: That would be cool. We could do at least little clips I mean when you kind of wrote the book, or introduced the book, we could have little clips.

Speaker 5: Right, 'cause you said a few things that I was like ...

Speaker 6: Powerful powerful things.

Speaker 8: I hope it sounds good when you listen to it.

Speaker 5: Oh it'll be hard, it'll be hard.

Speaker 6: It may not [inaudible 01:52:02] It sounded great when I was listening to it.

Speaker 5: There were a few times when I was like "Don't cry. Don't cry. Don't tear up. That's weak. Don't tear up." 'Cause you said some things that I was like ...

Speaker 8: Aww you're so sweet. Well, I actually really enjoyed meeting you and talking with you. 'Cause, you know, I was nervous. But ...

Speaker 5: You were, and I showed her on the plane I'll tell you ... this is funny, but I wouldn't say it to Calvin. So, I wrote you the night before, you know, here's what's gonna happen, and I wrote that to Calvin. And you wrote back "Great! You're so ..." you know "love hearin'" you know, but Calvin wrote [inaudible 01:52:31].

Speaker 6: Two sentences.

Speaker 5: I was like, here's our individuals [inaudible 01:52:31] you're individuals. One's you, and here's Calvin.

Speaker 8: He's shy.

Speaker 5: We'll pull 'em out. We'll get em out of there.

Speaker 8: You can walk downtown which would be right on Commerce Street. It's 15 blocks, but it's walkable. I walk to yoga down there all the time.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 8: And there's like, some cool restaurants, and there's a historical hotel down there.

Speaker 5: So, shop that way.

Speaker 8: Five points has just like one little shop, but it's a really neat shop, and there's a restaurant there too and something else. But it has a really cool store called Vone. It's just really cool. Understand but it's ...

Speaker 5: Cool.

Speaker 8: And you could walk that way and it would be like eight blocks on the right side and it's just literally like five streets, I think five streets from the crossroads.

Speaker 5: Cool! Okay.

Speaker 8: Alright. And if you need to, come back and get a glass of wine. Scooch over, my dear!

Speaker 6: I think the next step would be for you to have a show in Atlanta, don't you think?

Speaker 5: You know, have you ever been to the America craft talented show?

Speaker 8: No I have not been there.

Speaker 5: Oh wow. It's a huge show. Yeah.

Speaker 6: If you do, please call. [inaudible 01:53:55] and let us know.

Speaker 8: I will definitely let you know if I come.

Speaker 6: That would be great.

Speaker 8: But, I think I would ... I don't have fun [inaudible 01:54:02]

Speaker 6: It's interesting. It's interesting. This is my first time here, so yeah it's very ... yeah.

Speaker 8: And I wish that you could see more, because it is a neat city. But this isn't the best time of year to be here.

Speaker 6: Yeah, well, we were landing and she goes ... and I was sittin' on the aisle seat, and she goes "Look out the window" and I went "(gasps)" like, I mean I literally just like, every single part of my body tingled. I was like "Oh my God, it's so beautiful!" Just so weird to see it.

Speaker 8: Well it's nice that you like it.

Speaker 5: It's gorgeous.

Speaker 8: 'Cause a lot of people are like-

Speaker 5: It's gorgeous.

Speaker 8: You have to see it.

Speaker 6: I love this little area.

Speaker 5: It does look really, just quite amazing.

Speaker 8: It is.

Speaker 5: And like, I love ... I don't know if everyone is, but the respect for coyotes and stuff. 'Cause out where we are, we have coyotes, but people are like organizing neighborhoods to get them out.

Speaker 6: They're seen as a nuisance and they are killers.

Speaker 8: They're in every state. Every single state in the union, and-

Speaker 6: I've gotta ...

Speaker 8: From ... They're-

Speaker 5: They're survivors.

Speaker 8: They're survivin'. Yeah. [inaudible 01:55:03]

Speaker 5: And I mean, they ... I noticed that. [inaudible 01:55:03]

Speaker 8: I know. There are so many symbols now that I'm going to ... I need to ... That's a old picture. [inaudible 01:55:04]

Speaker 7: I think this dog is your dad.

Speaker 8: Yeah. It could have a couple different spirit animals.

Speaker 7: The coyote was one of them.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Definitely.

Speaker 5: But anyway, coyotes, they're in my neighborhood. I live in the middle of a city, and they do take animals, I mean-

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 5: But they're not too bad.

Speaker 7: Well, that-

Speaker 6: That's what they do.

Speaker 8: It's in the nature of their being.

Speaker 7: That's what I was just saying Elizabeth, she'll say "what is that so and so eating?" And I'm like, you don't get mad at a lion for eating an antelope. You can't ... just 'cause you see it ...

Speaker 8: Well that, I could go into this long story, but coyotes actually got ... almo ... they stried to decimate them and they survived in such a way that they adapted and now that's why they're in every state because they are very adaptable, and when they tried to get rid of them, their whole way of breeding changed. So ... This book I just listened to Coyote America, I highly recommend it.

Speaker 6: Where'd you hear that?

Speaker 8: It's actually really really good and it's filled with all different kinds of narratives about like Native American stories about it also the history of trying to eradicate predators in this country and ... it's just really interesting.

Speaker 6: The parallels.

Speaker 8: Yeah. It's really new, it just came out.

Speaker 6: Well, it inspired me, for sure. I'll have to check it out.

Speaker 7: Well, they brought something over to eat. Oh they brought, which I think they're so cute, mongooses over to take care of the rat population, but one's nocturnal and one's daytime, so it didn't work. So, now they have all these mongooses-

Speaker 5: You'd think they'd research that before they do that.

Speaker 7: Right. Well they just figured the mongooses [inaudible 01:56:36] I think it's just poetic justice. The mongooses tear up the golf course.

Speaker 8: Well, there ya go.

Speaker 7: Right.

Speaker 5: I actually think it's poetic justice [inaudible 01:56:47]

Speaker 8: Yeah. Oh totally.

Speaker 7: There have been times where you go to the golf course and it's like "Mongoose!" [inaudible 01:56:54]

Speaker 8: Thank you!

Speaker 5: Thank you guys.

Speaker 7: Alright! Take care, our friends.[inaudible 01:57:05]

Speaker 5: I will. Absolutely.

Speaker 8: Thank you.

Speaker 5: If you have any more questions don't be afraid to ask.

Speaker 8: As soon as I get somewhere. [inaudible 01:57:14]

Speaker 7: Actually it comes and goes.

Speaker 5: Oh really? Wasn't that in your installation part on your website?

Speaker 8: The installation was just in people's houses. There was a picture.

Speaker 6: Oh 'cause I saw one-

Speaker 7: I thought so. Yes.

Speaker 6: It was outside?

Speaker 8: Well, I brought it in, 'cause it was just-

Speaker 5: Did you freshen it up after it was outside or no?

Speaker 6: What kind of stain were you using? That's amazing.

Speaker 8: Well it's acrylic paint but I put this stuff called General finishes 450 which has a unique [inaudible 01:57:54]

Speaker 6: So it doesn't yellow.

Speaker 8: It does a little bit. You can see the drip marks on her legs, but not too bad. You can see there's some yellowing.

Speaker 6: That's amazing though. Like it's ... that's amazing.

Speaker 8: But it doesn't [inaudible 01:58:07]

Speaker 5: I can see that.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I gotta bring it in, eventually.

Speaker 5: Can we go out through there again?

Speaker 8: Oh no, you can just go out-

Speaker 5: Straight out the back. Alright. Bye. Thanks for hosting. [inaudible 01:58:22]

Speaker 7: Oh I like that.

Speaker 5: I loved it. [inaudible 01:58:37]

Speaker 6: I brought too much crap, but I need it. All of it. I need. I took my whole card worth of pictures, right there. So, I need to kinda.

Speaker 7: We'll download tonight after [inaudible 01:58:58]

Speaker 6: Okay. But I'm wondering if I should download before we-

Speaker 7: We'll never do two on the same day.

Speaker 6: Wait, are we doin' another one-

Speaker 7: Tomorrow.

Speaker 6: Tomorrow?

Speaker 7: That's what I mean, we can do it tonight.

Speaker 6: She was lovely.

Speaker 5: You know what's funny.

Speaker 7: I could talk to her longer. I could talk to her longer.

Speaker 5: We should've just hung out with her all night.

Speaker 6: You know what I was thinking as you were talking to her? You know, I'm thinking, growing up and being inspired by artists and looking at artists books and reading artist stories, and there's no such things as an artists movement anymore. You could be the creator of the artist movement because the only reason they exist is because people documented them and talked about them and artists were selective.

Speaker 7: Yeah 'cause I was thinking about, you know you see all those pictures of like Pablo Picasso hanging out with [inaudible 01:59:55] in Paris and all that, and like, even writers like Dorothy Parker that used to meet at the Algonquin Hotel in New York and talk about writing.

Speaker 6: Yep.

PART 1 OF 2 ENDS [00:30:04]

This segment could not be transcribed due to issues with the source file.