Larry Anderson: She was raised in, [inaudible 00:00:01], and she's very important, as mothers are. They came to visit here from Kansas. Now, they lived three hours from the nearest airport in Wichita.

interviewer: Three hours?

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh (affirmative).

interviewer: Nice.

Larry Anderson: So Randall is in the middle county along the Nebraska border, about 20 miles south of Nebraska, so it's nowhere land. And we were driving over to Athens to see Hank's family and do Sunday dinner. We're driving, driving, driving, you know how it went. It just doesn't run out.

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: She goes “Kyle, this place is huge! Everywhere, people, houses, cars, businesses!” We get about half way there, and it starts turning into farms and trees and stuff. Rounded the curve and there're a bunch of trees ... not trees, a bunch of cows in a pasture, and mother says, and my dad and all of us laughed, “Oh, cows! I feel like I'm back in civilization again.”

interviewer: That's ... because to her ... [crosstalk 00:01:12]

Larry Anderson: Does that explain how simple my life was growing up?

interviewer: Yes. And you know, it's interesting, 'cause I didn't grow up rural, at all. And I went to interview somewhere once, and it was far out, and I remember driving in the car that day, and there were cows everywhere. And by the time I got there I felt so much peace. 'Cause there's something about a cow that's just ...

Larry Anderson: I know it. They're gentle beings.

interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, I was in Dallas this weekend and there were cows, and I was just like ... there's just something about a cow. I don't know what it is.

Larry Anderson: I like the drawings better than the paintings.

interviewer: But this, like this part of them, and they always have a little ... and they always smell like cut grass. I don't know. I love cows.

Larry Anderson: I know. I'm a print making major, printmaking drawings in Georgia State. Do you want some coffee?

interviewer: I'm good. I don't drink the stuff.

Larry Anderson: Okay. So this is in the most recent show.

interviewer: This is the one ... this is why I'm here.

Larry Anderson: Oh.

interviewer: Wasn't this at the gallery?

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah.

interviewer: Okay, so, I was at the gallery talking about ... was it Bruce Chapin, or ... there was one other artist there that I'm talking to. I had bought a piece and I was there picking it up, and I saw this and I was like, “Alright, who's that?” And then he went into this story about you, and the song. And I looked you up, and here we are.

Larry Anderson: Great.

interviewer: Yeah. 'Cause I said, “There's so much in the simplicity of that, but it's a whole ..."

Larry Anderson: Oh, I edit. My work gets really beautiful, which I don't mind. It's part of who I am, no matter what the subject is. It could be Jesus, with a knife in his back.

interviewer: I saw that.

Larry Anderson: I'm not sure why ... I know I don't like a lot of stuff in there.

interviewer: But it says volumes.

Larry Anderson: Right.

interviewer: Your work to me is almost like looking at spines of a book on a shelf, but the whole book is there, too.

Larry Anderson: Oh, that's cool. I'm going to say that.

interviewer: But you know, you're looking, you're like, “Okay, that's a story, that's a story, that's a story, that's definitely a story.” But it's the spines of it.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, it took a while.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: And a drawing like that doesn't happen in a day, or a week. I kept thinking, I kept reading, I did research. Things would pop out.

interviewer: Yeah, that's the second time you've mentioned research, and that was interesting to me. Like last night I looked at, or I was reading about ... You saw that hat that said, 'Thank God for AIDS.'

Larry Anderson: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

interviewer: And then you did that wall of hats.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I love that piece.

interviewer: And I was like ... well, and it made me think of a question for you is: Does something instigate you and then you chew on it, and then this comes out, or the hats come out? Or sometimes, is it just self-generated? Or does something usually spark you? How does that ...?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, something usually sparks me. Like this is all about the statues, the Confederate statues they're taking down. And, my feelings about ... well, being raised in the mid-west, I don't know where you were raised ...

interviewer: Florida.

Larry Anderson: How much did you talk about the Civil War?

interviewer: It's the most beige state there is. There's nothing in Florida except chain restaurants.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: And hedges shaped like Mickey Mouse ears. Like there's ... that's it. Where I was raised.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, sure.

interviewer: Orlando.

Larry Anderson: So, it was just kind of goofy. That they're so preoccupied with it down there, and they're still fighting it, verbally.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: And I think people buying trucks and chains ... and that's just too easy to draw into groups [inaudible 00:05:02] don't like this. So, I got to thinking, “Well, how could you get a point across by leaving the statue?” Like the one in Decatur. Now I just wish they'd take a sander to it, and sand all the words off and leave the obelisk, that'd be my resolution.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: It's kind of nice looking, but ... and I have a friend who just hates this drawing.

interviewer: This one?

Larry Anderson: Oh, God.

interviewer: Well, what is it about?

Larry Anderson: We got into a screaming match. And his parents were Quakers in North Carolina, and we got into an argument one time over the Civil War, and ... what did he say? He said about states rights, which is what they always throw out, I said, “Yeah, states rights to own slaves.”

It was about states rights, yeah, to own slaves. Ah, too easy. But I know it was because I did enough reading, the first lecture that was given by George Owen, the lieutenant governor got up to speak, he talked about black people, "Well, Negros were meant to be subservient and white people helped them by putting them to work."

interviewer: That's an interesting perspective.

Larry Anderson: And then the biblical aspects of it are even worse. So, that's when ... I was raised in a family, dad was the lay preacher in the Christian church, which meant that when the preacher was on vacation, he preached.

interviewer: Oh, so he was the backup-ish?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, but the preacher was a nice guy, really nice guy. Mother was very religious, she went to women's bible meetings, blah, blah, blah. And then the whole gay thing came up, and I didn't work with that for years ...

interviewer: But it started? You started? It was in there and starting to grow ?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, yeah.

interviewer: Is it really just anything that's kind of injustice or not ...?

Larry Anderson: It is, it's about injustice. It's about human rights issues.

interviewer: So what is it, and this is something, because I saw your art with the forms and the classical, and I looked through all of that ... What is it that makes you feel like, and this sounds like a challenging question but it's more curiosity ... of all the people in the world ... so there're things, like people would let the Civil War go because it happened so long ago, or people, even the gay thing now, it's in the middle of the heat of it. What makes you say, “I'm gonna voice,” versus just on the phone to my friends or at parties over drinks, and then it goes away, what makes you go, “I need to put this thing in the world, I need to put this thing out there”?

Larry Anderson: That's not being an artist?

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: After much thought goes into a piece or show or anything like that, it's because something triggered it in me. And I'm not a religious person at all, but I use it all the time because ...

interviewer: Well, it's in you, you grew up around it.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, it's in there. I mean, Jesus was a nice guy.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: That's what we were taught, and we should love our neighbor and blah, blah, blah. The church was about love, it wasn't about hate.

interviewer: Or separation or better than, or ...?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, except the older I got the more I realized mom and dad were raised in this little town of 200 people, now down to about 70, and they had lots of prejudices.

interviewer: Sure.

Larry Anderson: Because there probably wasn't a black person for 75 miles.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: It was a big deal when a Catholic family moved to town.

interviewer: That's funny.

Larry Anderson: Oh, big deal. So you begin to pick up signals, but a lot of this has to do with my dad, in that he was such a nice guy. Later in life he kind of became an awful bigot.

But growing up, we were just told ... mother would get mad at us, dad of course was at work, if we didn't open a door for an older person. Mother worked at a nursing home, she made Tara and I, especially when we dropped her at work, go in and meet people, because no one ever came to see them.

interviewer: Right, right. So it's based on wonderful ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: ... heart, but there were things that you started picking up, that were the ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah, that weren't so nice.

interviewer: Well, and it was just unknowing, it was a belief so strong that ....

Larry Anderson: Yeah, they were pretty ignorant about, you know, if you didn't have a black ... If you're not around black people and have friends who are black, then that's it, you just don't know.

interviewer: You just don't know, right. So back to you grew up in that environment. Not even good or bad, just that was your environment, and that's what everybody was exposed to. There just wasn't exposure to it.

Larry Anderson: No, that's what our family was exposed to. You wanna sit down?

interviewer: Sure, where am I?

Larry Anderson: Anywhere.

interviewer: I like looking at that.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 00:11:09]

interviewer: But then what takes it from an observation, to an impulse to create something?

Larry Anderson: Well, you mentioned the hats.

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: I was invited to be in a show in New York on AIDS, and they had dedicated and area of the museum to AIDS work. When I met the director and showed him my work, I hadn't done the hats yet. He was very interested, and he asked me, “What right do you have,” because it was a piece about blood. Of course everybody was [crosstalk 00:12:03]

interviewer: The shovel in this?

Larry Anderson: Yep.

interviewer: I told you I looked.

Larry Anderson: You did. You were thorough. Through these vials of blood and they said, “Spic, Nigger, Faggot."

interviewer: Yep, the little ...

Larry Anderson: So, that spelt male. And he said, “What right do you have to use those terms?” He was a Spanish guy, the director was, Carlos Solano, and I said, “Well, it kind of helps, being gay,” you know. I'm hyphenated. And he is gay also. So he says, “You want to be in a show here?” He said, “We dedicated that area over there for AIDS work.”

Everything in the art world happens by years, because it's a year ahead, because they have to plan and write grants and everything.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: So I came home. I had a good friend named Michael Venezia, who has since died, who I shared a studio with. I told him about this hat project. We had gone out to Marietta during the Olympics hoopla, [crosstalk 00:13:34] county.

And there was this old fart ... I'm an old fart now, but this man who had a hat that said, 'Praise God for AIDS,' and a t-shirt and a sign.

interviewer: All saying the same?

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh. And I thought, wow, what an asshole he is. And I thought, you can't argue with people who are that bad. But how could you embarrass them into thinking about it.

I talked to several people. Several works came out of that day.

interviewer: Because of that one person or everything you saw?

Larry Anderson: Everything. This young man ... of course, I was there to support the arts, and I gave stuff.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: I was with an artist group here in town.

interviewer: The one you started? [crosstalk 00:14:29]

Larry Anderson: Yeah. No, not Taboo. It was just a whole bunch of artists I knew, who called me up and said, “We're going up to Cobb County to protest. They're cutting the funding for arts because it attracts gay people.”

So we went up there, and I know how stupid that sounds but ...

interviewer: The sentence is hard to even hear, like ...

Larry Anderson: I know it. So we went out there, and this young man came up and he talked to me. I told him I was gay, because I'm never ashamed of it.

interviewer: Not the hat man.

Larry Anderson: Uh-uh.

interviewer: Okay, a person.

Larry Anderson: Oh no, he couldn't [inaudible 00:15:04],

interviewer: Right, right.

Larry Anderson: The young man, he had four children, he said. Very Christian. A woman, separately I talked to this woman and they were all young kids. Not toddlers, but preschool, and I said, “Where do you think gay people come from?” And then I did a piece called that. And he said, “Dysfunctional families.” And I said, “Oh. Well I'm a twin, my brother is gay. And I have five other siblings and they're all straight. What'd they do when we came into the room? Act dysfunctional because the kids are here? The twins are here?” That's stupid!

interviewer: Yes. And what was the ... So you had like ...

Larry Anderson: And then I said to him, about his children, I said, “My parents didn't raise a gay child. They had a gay child.” I said, “What happens if one of your kids turn out gay? And you're out here protesting?”

interviewer: What did he say?

Larry Anderson: The look on his face was quite surprising.

interviewer: And that's all you needed.

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah.

interviewer: That's all you need, is to ...

Larry Anderson: You can poke holes in the arguments so easily!

interviewer: And then just leave it, because it's not for you to try to bore into unless you want to, but just to crack the thought at all and make you go, “Oh, what if?”

Larry Anderson: No one raises gay children.

interviewer: They have them. Yeah, I like that.

I'm digging at you a little bit, but I'm going to keep doing it. Let's go back a little bit, because I love the hats. I love that.

Larry Anderson: Thank you.

interviewer: Just because I was raised Catholic, devout Catholic. Summer camp, everything, and you couldn't question. That was part of what you didn't do, but I'm crazy, crazy curious. I'm an insatiable curious about everything, so I was always ... “But I don't under- ...” “Shh!”

So now, I'm reading The God Delusion, but I go to church every Sunday. I want to just read it all. I want to know.

That's part of why I'm doing this, and I just want to know things. So you, let's go back again to where you were raised.

Larry Anderson: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

interviewer: Birth through 18, you were in this environment.

Larry Anderson: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

interviewer: A great environment. Norman Rockwellian ...

Larry Anderson: Almost.

interviewer: Right? And then, at 18 ...

Larry Anderson: Head to college.

interviewer: Is that where your awareness grew? Tell me how you got from 18 to ...

Larry Anderson: Okay. I was going to go ... I wanted to become a stylist in the movie industry. I don't know why I thought that would be the thing to do ... I was going to go to cosmetology school, and I was going to go to make-up school and I was going to do this.

interviewer: And this is 18?

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh.

interviewer: Did you know you were gay yet?

Larry Anderson: I didn't know what gay was!

interviewer: Exactly. Okay, great. I just want to make sure. Because all these things ...

Larry Anderson: I knew I was different. Terry and I talked about it years later. Here's these two kids ...

interviewer: And Terry is your twin?

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Terry and I talked about it years later, about we just knew were different. We didn't know what it was, because we didn't talk about it on TV. Mom and dad knew what it was, because they worried about us.

interviewer: Oh, they knew.

Larry Anderson: Mothers always know. I'm sorry, but they do. They may deny it ...

interviewer: But there's a ...

Larry Anderson: There's something in there.

interviewer: Well, because there are physiological pieces that re shared.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. They said, “Well you've always drawn and painted ...” I didn't paint yet. “You've always drawn and you always liked art. Why don't you go find out if you're any good.” This is mom and dad sitting me down. They didn't want me to be a hairdresser. That's not what they wanted. They didn't want. Oh.

interviewer: I'm just going to let you decide.

Larry Anderson: I went to Hutch Juco, and I was going to be a fashion designer. They thought I played with paper dolls, but I was taking my sisters paper dolls and drawing dresses for them.

interviewer: As a designer would.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Oh it's too long of a story. Anyway. So I went to Juco, that's Juco, and took some interior design classes ... not interior design, clothing design classes.

interviewer: Now, was that hard for them to let you do?

Larry Anderson: No, they wanted me to do it.

interviewer: Because I didn't know if they would try to steer you, you know.

Larry Anderson: Well, I was going to college. And it was the Vietnam war, you gotta remember that.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: College, for them was very important.

Then I took a painting class, drawing and painting class. I thought, hmm, no one ever told me about this. And I was running track in college.

interviewer: We're you dating yet?

Larry Anderson: I dated this one girl. Like mom called me about that. Becky who? Lisbon? She's a lesbian now.

interviewer: So there was something that you recognized though, maybe?

Larry Anderson: No. She got married twice. I worked for her mother. Anyway, my mother is funny about stuff like that. Not with her, but ...

interviewer: So painting?

Larry Anderson: Okay so I go to college. I took a drawing and painting class. Wow. It was great. I still wasn't out, even though I was propositioned a couple times I didn't even know it. So dense. And sex was bad anyway, according to my mother.

interviewer: Sure it is.

Larry Anderson: So I did mom a painting ... I don't know if I've ever told any critic or anybody this ... for mothers day, of a crucifixion, because she is so religious. To me, I was killing Jesus off. I was tired of him.

interviewer: Oh right, you were purging that maybe?

Larry Anderson: I was. I know why I painted it.

interviewer: Did you know then?

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah. This religion thing is in my way.

interviewer: This is not what I want to hear.

Larry Anderson: It's hanging in the church at home now. Since they died they left it to the church.

interviewer: And the church?

Larry Anderson: Oh, they don't know I painted it. It's an awful painting because I was one semester ...

interviewer: It's not the Pawson one?

Larry Anderson: Oh no, you've never seen it.

interviewer: Oh okay.

Larry Anderson: No. The crucifixion was the sky opening up and sun coming down. I'd had half a semester figure drawing. It's awful. But she loved because of what it was, and her kid made it.

interviewer: Right. Refrigerator. That is important, I think, for what I'm trying to get at, which is, you took this class, and your instinct, or your thought was, “Nobody ever told me about this,” so there must have been an instant like ...

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah.

interviewer: Was there like an, “Oh, this is an outlet,” or “This is a thing,” or “This is my thing,” or what was that ...

Larry Anderson: Here I am, this hip kid, and I literally was one of the worst in the class, and I was not going to end the class that way.

interviewer: The painting class?

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh.

interviewer: What made you think you were the worst?

Larry Anderson: Oh, I knew.

interviewer: Just from looking at the ...

Larry Anderson: There was one kid who was amazing. There was a girl that was really good, but she was just too saccharine, but boy could she paint.

I did two paintings. I don't know if I have photographs of them. My final painting was this guy when you have him up like this, with this white, white glow, with little bits of color in the background, surround, and he's in these rocks.

I think back on that painting and I'm thinking I was just trying to hold things back. And then I did the crucifixion. And I knew I did it. And the painting teacher ... Junior College painting isn't great. So then I was offered a scholarship.

interviewer: For?

Larry Anderson: Basketball.

interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Larry Anderson: Through a religious school, and I thought, “No, I can't do that. They won't let me do what I want.”

interviewer: You'd be going back.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I went to the art department, and it was like Mickey Mouse. And I was like, “What in the heck? I can't do this.” [crosstalk 00:24:48]

interviewer: Is it because you had already started to break away, and you knew that that felt right, and that would be going back?

Larry Anderson: I knew they had an agenda.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: And that my agenda was not their agenda. I didn't know what my agenda was, because I didn't know that talent ... Talent's a curious process. It's something you learn over time. And just like any, you get better and better at it. I make less, I succeed more.

You don't start something, without some idea, but at the same time I know humans fail, every day. I used to tell my students, I said, “Good failures are part of your life.”

interviewer: My favorite failure saying is Winston Churchill said, “Success is failing over, and over, and over and never losing your enthusiasm.”

Larry Anderson: Yep. Do you know who Erma Bombeck was?

interviewer: Yeah. I'm 51, I'm not that young.

Larry Anderson: She probably didn't write her own headlines, but she had the headline one time that said, “Work is where success is found.”

interviewer: That's great. That's great!

Larry Anderson: I love that.

interviewer: Now I have another one. I love that.

Larry Anderson: That's great. And so anyway, back to school. So I fell in love, didn't know it, with John Corneilson who was my track buddy. He ran hurdles too, and he played on the football team. And he didn't have any brothers and sisters, so I was almost his brother. His family was from [inaudible 00:26:37] so I'd go visit on them. They lived out in the country, outside of Hutchinson, Kansas, where the college was. And he was going to Wichita State, and he said, “Why don't you come with me and be my roommate?"

interviewer: Did he have any idea? Right. But you knew? Did you knew you were ...

Larry Anderson: I had feelings for him, but I didn't know what that was.

interviewer: Right. You just thought this is strong brotherhood or ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: And John had told me, one time, I don't know how late there. Anyway, I came out while I was living with him, and that caused lots of problems. He figured it out. I'll put it that way.

But he didn't run away. And he had told me one time he wondered if he was gay. This is when I found out what it meant. But he wondered. It's natural to be curious. So that kind of helped me blow if off. And between my sophomore and junior year at Wichita State, where I went, I ran track for a while. I just couldn't put up with the time.

I was working 40 hours a week too, and I couldn't get my work or my art done. So I came out, [inaudible 00:28:06] my junior year, with a guy I was working with at the restaurant.

interviewer: That was just the moment.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I was like a duck to water. Like, Oh, this is it. This is what's been my problem. I was worried about this and this just way fun and I just don't care what other people think. I did decide, consciously never to tell my parents, because I knew if I got angry with them ... that's why I wouldn't do it.

interviewer: Oh.

Larry Anderson: So I thought, well I'm never going to deny it. If they ask, I'll tell. So my family wrote me this seven page letter.

interviewer: But your parents sound like they weren't necessarily unsupportive, and they might have known inklings and that there wasn't like a shunning of you ...

Larry Anderson: Oh, no.

interviewer: ... Or a discouragement of any direction that way.

Larry Anderson: Well, the gay thing was a big issue. Because that was a Jesus thing.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: Or the bible.

interviewer: Conveniently not. So let me ask you, and this is, I think important as well, it seems like your sexuality and identity, two different things, and your art kind of work intertwined, and then developed as you kind of came in consciousness of the other. Or are they parallel, intertwined? Tell me about the relationship of you becoming an artist, and you, becoming you.

Larry Anderson: That's an interesting question, because you use the word artist. I didn't feel like an artist, until I was 30.

interviewer: Go crazy on that. Tell me more, because that's what I want ...

Larry Anderson: I made things.

interviewer: Why did you make things.

Larry Anderson: Because I liked it.

interviewer: And why that ...

Larry Anderson: I liked making things. I was teaching art in high school, and I was still working some stuff at home, in my house, in my apartment, in Wichita, and in Houston when I moved there. And I liked the work, but there wasn't much of it. And when you're out, thank god it's all high school and not junior high or grade school, because they talk like that. The teachers too.

interviewer: Was it your way of working out who you were?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, it became that. Initially, I did some things about how women are treated as objects. Kind of a tits and ass concept.

interviewer: The cats with the boobs.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah [crosstalk 00:31:08]

interviewer: That's the modern form of it.

Larry Anderson: They came much later. That was just funny. Women's rights were something that interested me a lot, because it's so unfair.

interviewer: But it's all fine now. We can drive in Islam. We can drive in Saudi Arabia.

Larry Anderson: Kinda. I don't recall the paper about it ...

interviewer: Oh boy.

Larry Anderson: I don't know. I'm rambling.

interviewer: No, it's good. I think you're working it out. I've asked you some pretty ... I'm getting into your business.

Larry Anderson: Why make art? I think when people tell me they wish they could draw, that they wish they could think a thought in their head and make it visible.

interviewer: Probably the most important sentence I'll hear in a long time, is that right there, because that's what this is about. I have an urge, but I can't because I'm not good. I've never had a class I can't.

PART 1 OF 6 ENDS [00:32:04]

interviewer: I can't, because I'm not good. I've never had a class I can't just do and it works out.

Larry Anderson: I think that's what people want to do who say, "I wish I could draw." Because I look at it and say why?

interviewer: I think they want the shove, yeah.

Larry Anderson: So, lots of people give up when they're younger because they're not encouraged. I was encouraged.

interviewer: So, do you think they give up on the art, or they give up on the thinking of where it's taking them? And just ...

Larry Anderson: Fear of failure.

interviewer: Fear of failure, or judgment, or all ...

Larry Anderson: Judgment. Somebody's gonna look at it and say, "Oh, that's not very good. Why are you doing that?" I couldn't draw for crap. There's two kinds of artist, two extremes. There's the realist, which Picasso's a good example. He didn't draw it to look like it was real, but he had to have a model, and he started with reality, and he twisted it, because he was interested in what would happen if I do this. He got bored. I can't think of the other term. The other side is people who like to make things up.

interviewer: So conceptual? Is it a concept?

Larry Anderson: No, it's a word. It starts with a ... I'll think of it.

interviewer: Okay.

Larry Anderson: I haven't taught in a while, so I forget things now. I was one of those. I like to make things up. When you don't ... when you haven't had much figure drawing, you start making up Jesus on the cross, it's gonna come out too long, too skinny, not very accurate. The theme will be, people get it, because the iconography's there, the cross and the guy hanging on it. Jesus.

interviewer: Right. There's no other ... right. That's his gig.

Larry Anderson: It's just ... it's the symbol that tells you it's Jesus. He can be on his back, holding up.

interviewer: Wearing it.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I like to make things up. It took me years to draw. Every figure I drew, I was doing some ... I taught high school art in Houston, and I moved to El Paso. That's how I got serious. I was living with a doctor who was in the military there.

interviewer: Roommate or partner?

Larry Anderson: Partner. It was either move where he was or break it off. I had met him in Dallas before he went in the military. And that's how I ended up in Atlanta, because of John. He moved to El Paso, and I said, "Okay, I'll move out there." I loved him, and I wanted to be in a relationship, and I thought, "He's one of the smartest, nicest guys I've ever met." And I signed up at the UTEP, University of Texas at El Paso. They put me to work teaching drawing as a fellowship. Also I had to take classes.

interviewer: So were you self taught at this point? And how far?

Larry Anderson: I had gone to Wichita State. I had a teacher there named John Fincher, who was incredible. He'd tell you the truth. I wasn't great. I made up a figure instead of having one that looked like it. I don't know why the same figure always happened.

interviewer: But was it coming from a ... you just couldn't help yourself?

Larry Anderson: I couldn't help myself. I was doing some things painting-wise that were just more technical. I wanted to paint a woman in a [inaudible 00:36:38] painting. It's a woman figure, not realistic at all, about 20 blocks of color, and each one has a figure in it, and then overall, it makes this other figure. It's a technical term. And I had to finish it as a technical challenge. I got bored. I'll get back to this technical thing. But I ... John was very smart. Good god, he was smart. He lives in Fort Worth now. He encouraged me a lot. I had a show when I finished there that was kind of like the three phases of Larry Anderson, very technical drawings that I did. This home in the dining room table with yellow carpet in the condo. I'd be so careful.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: Then at school, where I had wet rags of color and throw them at paper and then start. I had these sides of me that just wanted to go wild, and then these sides of me that want to slow down, take it easy, be nice and neat. That's where I really got serious career-wise, because I had my first real show there.

interviewer: So getting ready to have your first real show, and people are in there looking at your work, what's that like?

Larry Anderson: It's like hanging your ego on the wall and handing out darts to people who come in. You don't know if they're gonna throw them or not.

interviewer: Do you care at that point? You do care very much? Did you get to a point where ...

Larry Anderson: If I like the work, I don't care. I try not to let anything out of my studio that I don't like.

interviewer: So then you're fine releasing it into the world and going ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I'm not ... Tom Francis, who teaches painting, he hates openings. He hides in the back.

interviewer: 'Cause he doesn't wanna hear and see and ...

Larry Anderson: Mine is so content-driven, I don't mind I want people to get it.

interviewer: Right. As I said, you don't want them to look at it and go, "Interesting. Oh, it's a" ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I want them to get it.

interviewer: So I was talking about you're getting ready to walk into your first show.

Larry Anderson: I was so proud of it.

interviewer: Does it remind you of where you come from and am I qualified and is this ... because now, you're an artist.

Larry Anderson: At that point, the reason I wasn't an artist up until I was 29 or 30 was because I couldn't take a thought and stick with it.

interviewer: Which is what you said prior. People have thoughts and they wanna make it into something visual, but there's a ...

Larry Anderson: I always thought an artist was a person who could ... all those books up there about artists, they grab a theme and they go with it. I couldn't get past about six pieces on a theme. 10 maybe.

interviewer: Because you were done with the thought, or you just ...

Larry Anderson: I did it. I've always been that way. I don't mind getting rid of anything, because I can always make more. I'm not sentimental about my work. When you asked me about the past in the kitchen, I was like, "Nah." It's fun that I did all that, and I'm quite surprised when I look at it.

interviewer: The body of work, the volume, all of that?

Larry Anderson: But then when I got to ... I hated some of that work in El Paso. Not all of it, for sure. But when I got to Jackson, Mississippi, where John moved to teach pediatric anesthesiology at the hospital, I had ... after going to Wichita and after living in Houston, after being in graduate school at UTEP, I had a lot of work, I thought.

interviewer: And you just kept making it with no end in mind, or did you have an end?

Larry Anderson: Sometimes. And then, now I don't, but I had an end in mind.

interviewer: End of the piece, or end of where you wanted to end up?

Larry Anderson: No, end of the body of work, where it's going gallery-wise. I had laid all my stuff out in my studio at school, and I thought, "I use the same colors over and over." I had this color sense in my head, and I don't like the fact that I'm stuck with it. So I wanted to do something different. I decided, I didn't know much about negative space and drawing, that I need to work on that. I packed up what I wanted to keep, and we got to Mississippi, awful place. I was this weirdo to them, because first thing I did was I got the Yellow Pages out, anything that said "Art gallery," I went to it. Frame shops, everything. So within a week, I knew everybody in town. It was funny. I was just driven to figure out how I was gonna survive as an artist. Not money-wise, just making it.

Then I interviewed for the art museum job, because it was being built, it was gonna open in two or three months. So I got a job there, and that's what I wanted. It was about the only job in town that was gonna be worth anything.

interviewer: Did you ever think you wanted to be anything else?

Larry Anderson: Mm-mmm (negative).

interviewer: Once you took that painting class.

Larry Anderson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. That was it. I was driven after that to be a good painter. That's why I take on technical things like that one painting.

interviewer: The figures in the figure.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Because controlling the image was really curious, and color. I got to Mississippi, I bought a package of 100 sheets of good paper. I put all my crayons in 1 bag, all my colored pencils in another bag, all my paints in a grocery bag. And I would look at the paper, I was working on a series where the object ... I love this work. I wanna get to the point. I sold almost all of it. It's really beautiful. I decided I wasn't gonna draw the object, which was gonna be a square with an X. Those were the two things I was interested in, which go back to childhood. But I draw around them and make them up here.

interviewer: Oh, to play with the negative space you were talking about.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. So I draw the negative space in the white box or the X.

interviewer: So the triangles to make an X.

Larry Anderson: And then I deconstructed the X and deconstructed the square. I did 100 drawings. I started it. So when I moved here, I learned a lot of that color, because I wasn't ... I'd say, "Okay, I'm gonna do a drawing with five colors." [inaudible 00:45:12] Came out white, I started. I would not let myself pick colors. I learned a lot by being deprived. It was like a teaching assignment for me. But then I felt better. That's when I felt like an artist. When I started those 100 pieces, I thought this was a theme I could continue on.

interviewer: And there's no end and there's another place to go.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. So I did those.

interviewer: How did you get to Square X?

Larry Anderson: There was a farmer at home [crosstalk 00:45:50].

interviewer: I was thinking barn door.

Larry Anderson: No. You can't draw a box with an X in it without lifting your pencil. This old farmer, he could work so fast at turkey or whatever were talking, and you weren't paying attention. I don't want ... he would do that on the chalkboard during a busy day at the house. He's a crazy old man. I had textbooks where I just had boxes and X's going down the sides of the pages.

interviewer: Trying to get it in one pen stroke?

Larry Anderson: Well, it's just fascinating as an image. It's like liking hamburgers better than hot dogs to me. It took me a long time before I realized ... Andrew Bassey, that was his name. He was the man who gave that image to me. I used it to represent my family, all this stuff. I moved to town, I was totally non-objective work. I went to Evelyn [inaudible 00:46:58], do you know?

interviewer: Mm-mmm (negative).

Larry Anderson: She's moved her gallery since I started there. And I knew, I met her son at a gay party, and he's like, "Oh, my aunt's an artist and runs an art gallery. You need to go over there and show her your work." He'd never seen my work, either. She didn't carry any abstract artists. But she said, "I like these. Let me keep these." She called me the next day. "I wanna represent you. I already sold them." I thought, "Wow, that's kind of cool."

interviewer: What do you think people were seeing in them?

Larry Anderson: I don't care.

interviewer: So you leave that for them.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, because there's ... like I said, they got real beautiful [inaudible 00:47:45]. I had this one drawing I did, [Hillson Hudson 00:47:50] owns. He's a realtor here in town. I used every colored pencil I had, but I wanted to draw it so light, you could hardly see it. You had to get close. I wanted to borrow that drawing for my show, for the catalog, and he said no. I was attached to that drawing. Who does that?

interviewer: That's funny.

Larry Anderson: I cut out little squares of cardboard and I'd draw around them so I wouldn't mess up the white. I learned I could tape it off and I could lift the paper and get the texture. These are all the technical things, the throwing the towel at my drawings. Drawing [inaudible 00:48:44] condo, over the years, I just got more and more drawing experience in my blood.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: Then when I went to learn in color, because I don't think in color unless I'm painting, when I decided that I was going to do those drawings and not control them, it's the best thing I ever did for myself, because the image emerged from the paper. That's where the magic comes in. I can make things appear and it's fascinating to me. Playful. A lot of play involved in those drawings. And what happened was I was making quite a bit of money.

interviewer: Right

Larry Anderson: I was doing some paintings and different things. And then the AIDS crisis came along, and I thought, "I just can't decorate paper anymore." I felt like a designer at that point, because I'd learned so much about work.

interviewer: Right. And you could wield it at that point, versus ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I could design like crazy. I did graduate school here, I taught at [inaudible 00:50:20] for money, then I went to graduate school after a year, because I had to establish residency. I was still messing around with the squares and the X's, and I started these black on black paintings. They're not all black on black, but that's what I call them. Then I went to Italy to teach. No, I went to Italy as a graduate student who didn't need the credits, but I wanted to go to Italy to study anyway. On this program, and [inaudible 00:50:58] teacher. He was one of the stars in photo etching, and I hated photo etching, so I made myself do it, because I'm gonna figure out how to mess with that.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: That's my first thought. I always see a drawing as messing up a good sheet of white paper.

interviewer: How so?

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 00:51:27], she had beautiful white paper and a canvas was stretched, and you can bump it and it's cool. The moment you have a mark on it, it's lost its value.

interviewer: You've defined it, and now it's a different thing.

Larry Anderson: So the first thing I do is just draw something, and then you try to emerge something out of that. That's why I've got drawers and drawers of failures down there. I don't start thinking I have to succeed. I'm thinking more as, it'd be nice if this works out.

interviewer: Right. So it's the chasing of the thought or idea or impetus, and then the outcome is ...

Larry Anderson: This drawing up here. I was having ... I was working on it, it's getting the point across, but it just hadn't crossed over. And that's the most dangerous time for an artist, is when you have something you like, it's doing what you want to do, but it's not aesthetically crossed over.

interviewer: Right. So it's resolved whatever you had, the impetus to make it, but you haven't ...

Larry Anderson: Now I want it to work visually.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: I want it to be a piece of art, not an illustration. That thing where that little sign is above the Mason Dixon line, I was standing there drinking a cup of coffee, and I just spit it on the drawing.

interviewer: That's what that is?

Larry Anderson: It happened there. That wasn't there. That kind of looks like one of those stork shapes. So that's what I did. I went looking for those downloading things.

interviewer: What happened?

Larry Anderson: Slaves above. Slaves [inaudible 00:53:33]. It refers to that. Sometimes I get mad at my own work. It gets too precious. This friend of mine, you have teachers tell you dumb things all the time. He said never draw a line across that little drawing, because it divides it in two equal parts, and one shouldn't have a different weight than the other, and the bottom one probably should be heavier than the top one. One day, I was working on this drawing, and I thought, I measure down halfway and I draw a line across. I painted it black below, left the paper white above, and I did this drawing of this man's head. Just beautiful man. It's called "Desire" or something like that. It's from the Desire series. Isn't she soft?

interviewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.

Larry Anderson: Once they touch it ... I like to take things like what I'm not supposed to do, then do it. That was through the years.

interviewer: Does that go all the way back to ...

Larry Anderson: College.

interviewer: Or does it go even further, not supposed to do how you're raised versus how ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah, religion. Don't do this. I guess art people have some of the same ... I had a teacher tell me who, I dropped his class the same day I signed up for it, that if you paint with black and white, it's a drawing, and if you draw with colored pencils on paper, it's a painting. And he gave me these 100 rules he had written down. I went and dropped his class like that, because no one's gonna tell me shit like that.

interviewer: Right. Is that what artists do? Is there a common thread of they just can't be bound by the normal suppression that I think, sometimes unknowingly, society puts on people to not create or break out?

Larry Anderson: And self-censorship becomes part of that.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: That's the worst.

interviewer: And I think you let go sometimes of that little voice.

Larry Anderson: Oh, I can't do that.

interviewer: You can't. That's what I'm trying to get the masses to go, is to read that and go, "I do have that little voice, and I just followed the 100 rules."

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Come here, Kate.

interviewer: That was cute.

Larry Anderson: You're such a flirt. Self-censorship is the worst. If I ever catch myself doing it, I get so mad. They won't buy that, I'm not gonna do it. Kind of over that one. Or when I draw Jesus with a knife in his back. But imagery, ideas, you have to be convinced you're on the right track, but realize it may fail.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: Like the hat pieces. Did I tell you about Michael? I was invited to be in a show in New York, real important non-profit space, where Carlos [Alano 00:57:17] worked. I told him I saw a guy in a hat, and I wanted to do a whole bunch of hats that said praise god for all kinds of terminal diseases. Michael says, "That's too easy."

interviewer: Because it was such a simple equation.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. He said, "Don't do it. Come up with another idea." No. I like that idea. I think it's gonna work, because it covers all the bases. People don't know if I'm religious. They don't know if I'm making fun of religion. First they laugh, they think it's funny.

interviewer: Right. That's the easy, right? Just because it's a hat, and it's a thing.

Larry Anderson: I was on the plane to New York with the hats in the boxes, all printed up. And the printing of them became, I had to hire a company that prints hats. And they didn't wanna do it because of what it said. [crosstalk 00:58:26] When you write God on there, people get nervous. I told them why I was doing it, and they said, "Okay, just don't tell anyone we printed them." I said, "I won't."

interviewer: We support what you're doing silently from back here.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. That's part of the process, though, I discovered, was having people make things with me, or going through the dialog of talking to a person who will never go to an art gallery, but they may go home and talk about that at dinner.

interviewer: Yes. And it also might touch that voice that they've ...

Larry Anderson: The only ones I always hang near the middle is the AIDS hat and the crib death is next to it, because it's so offensive.

interviewer: Right. Like SIDS?

Larry Anderson: Yep. Anyway, I ...

interviewer: You're on the plane, hats below.

Larry Anderson: I have an idea how they're gonna go up. I've gone to hat stores, looked at all the ways they displayed them. Oh, god, I hope this works. I get there, and I go buy a bunch of map pins, those little ...

interviewer: Pins with the dots.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, with the head on them. And I put three inside each hat, one in the middle, one folded in the back, one in the middle. My fingers were so sore when I got done with that. There's 80 hats. I hung them in a grid. I stood back. Wow. The lights on them make the most beautiful shadows.

interviewer: Interesting.

Larry Anderson: And it not only got my point across, it was beautiful visually.

interviewer: You're drawn to it, definitely.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I had white hats, colored hats. There were all kinds of decisions I had to make up until that point.

interviewer: Right. I love that they're black and white.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I thought, "Well, the gallery walls were white. I want these white. I just want them to be a sculpture on the wall."

interviewer: And I love that they're also in a grid, because there's sense and order.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah. The next year, when the Olympics was on, of course, Cobb County's left out of it. I got some friends, and we were gonna wear the hats to Cobb County, if that man ... he wasn't there, so we didn't wear them, because that wouldn't have worked.

interviewer: It's funny, I go to Dragon Con every year, because I think it's fun. It's where they dress up. And every year, without a doubt, there is a group there with the signs that say "Repent." And I walked up to them one year, and you're right, talking to them is futile. And I walked up to them, and I said, "What is anyone doing" because I have a Catholic background, "What is anyone doing here that's against the Bible? There's not one commandment being broken here. People are just dressing up like monsters." And he ...

Larry Anderson: He didn't have an answer.

interviewer: He paused one second, one second he cracked the door, looked at me, metaphorically cracked the door, looked at me, and then he shut it again, and just started, "You need to" ... just whatever the diatribe was. But it was all I needed. I just wanted one ... no one's doing anything.

Larry Anderson: Do you know, politically, the line item veto means?

interviewer: I heard the term many times.

Larry Anderson: They passed it and the supreme court showed up twice, because it's illegal. They try to pass it so the president can sign a bill and cross out parts he doesn't like.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: He can veto parts of it. That's the way people read the Bible. They don't talk about the fact that among that quote, you shouldn't lie with men as women or something, there's also you shouldn't shave, men shouldn't shave their sideburns.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: There's always ... don't eat pork, don't eat shrimp. But they pick that one because it's convenient.

interviewer: Because it serves.

Larry Anderson: I recently, and it was in the show too, he kept it over there, you may have seen it, it was a big red plastic feather.

interviewer: Yes. I didn't know it was plastic, but yes.

Larry Anderson: That's about David and Jonathan. Everyone knows David and Goliath.

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: Do you know anything after?

interviewer: No. I didn't even know Jesus had a brother.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah. So David was a shepherd. He killed his philistine giant guy, who was head of the armor, they [inaudible 01:03:52] interpretation of that. And he presented his head to Saul, the king. You've heard of Saul, I'm sure. Well, Saul ...

PART 2 OF 6 ENDS [01:04:04]

Larry Anderson: You heard of Saul, don't you? Well, Saul had a son named Jonathan and both Saul and the brother said the same thing to him. You will not return to your father's house, you will live with us and our souls are now connected. And then Saul got jealous of Jonathan, his son, he thought he was getting too attached to David. David must have been hot.

interviewer: Right, right.

Larry Anderson: And Jonathan went to a secret meeting with David and told him, my father wants to kill you. He wants to throw a spear at you that sticks a hole through you and into the wall. Something like that. And then they kissed and held each other all night. Now, we're never told this story.

interviewer: Interesting. I'm surprised it made it into, it's stayed in the publications.

Larry Anderson: You should read it. It's so incredible.

interviewer: Well, where's the piece.

Larry Anderson: Well the piece is, here's David in his, and here's Jonathan, whose naked.

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: 'Cause he gave his weapons and his armor and everything to David. So I drew that moment.

interviewer: I see, okay.

Larry Anderson: And then there's a red line from that quill that wraps around their legs and ties them together.

interviewer: See, I'm glad you told me all that 'cause I saw it but I didn't go up and ingest in.

Larry Anderson: Well, it's just a preacher wanted it. You know the Passion Church in the old Home Depot expo building up on the hill over here?

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: He ended up buying a different piece but they're the ones who brought it up. They wanted David and Jonathan. And they wanted ...

interviewer: Are they an open church?

Larry Anderson: I don't know. They're a prosperity church I think.

interviewer: They might be.

Larry Anderson: So I was hoping they would return my drawing once I had my show. Because, but they wanted that subject matter. 'Cause I had another drawing in there about age. About Samson being carried by one of his younger men. And they thought that was it. But they wanted horizontal landscape shape, not a vertical. So Yukai, who's Buddhist, calls then. Larry, I need a landscape. Landscape? What are you talking? With David in it. And I thought David [inaudible 01:06:54] David and Goliath. And, so I did a couple of sketches and went through my art history books and went through a couple of classical figures. I called him up and said what's this landscape they want? Oh no, that's the shape they want.

interviewer: Oh, you were thinking subject.

Larry Anderson: I'm thinking what, to draw trees and stuff. They're boring. And he said no, it's Jonathan. And I thought, who's that. So I got my Bible out and I read about it and I was shocked. I was shocked that I'd never been told about it.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: Because it just didn't. It's that line out of [inaudible 01:07:39]

interviewer: That's funny because like I said, I didn't even know Jesus had a brother.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: And I grew up devout Catholic. So I'm sure there's lots in there.

Larry Anderson: So anyway, I went and did the drawing even though they bought the other one. There's a guy who wants it. And he's just waiting for his tax money to come back.

interviewer: Right, I know all about that. So now we go back to the question I asked you a long time ago, which is good, which is good 'cause it's come full circle, it seems. It seems it's come full circle.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, legend came back around.

interviewer: It always does, doesn't it. At the beginning we talked about maybe, is it, you were figuring out you, you were figuring out art, was it entwined was it parallel and all that. And now it seems you're with the same question.

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah.

interviewer: 'Cause it's now ...

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah, art is about learning who you are. If you're doing it right I think. It's not about teaching other people. They don't get the exact same thing I did. I mean, you were raised Catholic in Florida and I was raised in farm town Kansas and it's just weird that artists think that, or viewers think that they're supposed to get the same thing. You get what you get. Sometimes you like something about an artist, you don't like something else about the same artist. We all like everything. It's just how do we, as viewers, grasp images. Why are there art museums.

interviewer: Why do you think there are?

Larry Anderson: I think we have to have them because we're human. Think of cave paintings. I love this lecture I used to give to parents. I'd start with the cave paintings. I'd say, okay. Can anyone tell me what the worlds oldest profession is. They'd giggle. I said it's artists. We can prove it.

interviewer: I love it.

Larry Anderson: And they'd sit there and I said, I have no earthly idea why we need art. But we have art museums in every major city, sometimes many of them. And I equate it to sports, I'd say, think of the Olympics. You have 10, 15 participants and you have thousands of people watching. They're getting nothing out of it. What is that?

interviewer: Right. What is that?

Larry Anderson: I said, there's something about human success and failure that we enjoy watching.

interviewer: That's true. How do you, so this is something that I've been interested in too, because again I want everybody to think, not maybe even successfully, that they can pick up a pen or clay or wood or whatever, and if they've got something inside it should be okay without that sense of failure or exposure or whatever. So I'm just asking the question. Do you think everybody's an artist?

Larry Anderson: No. I don't think some people let themselves be.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: And you asked earlier about what do I think I should do with my work, or something. Or what do I want to do. Marcel Duchamp, do you know who he was?

interviewer: The name, but not any extensive history.

Larry Anderson: Okay. He's more important philosophically than his work. But some of his work is incredible. He's the one who put a urinal in an art show and signed a fake name, R. Mutt. Because he heard there was a show in New York, this was in the 20's. And they said, sculpture show, we accept anyone who wants to be in it. And of course they didn't show and he sued and blah, blah, blah. But conceptually it was like, you say you're going to do something.

interviewer: Right. And it is a sculpture.

Larry Anderson: And he did the job. And it was non functioning, laying on it's back on a pedestal. So, isn't that funny.

interviewer: It is.

Larry Anderson: So he said in a lecture that he gave, his last lecture. It's in a book that I found at a store, a used bookstore here, that's signed.

interviewer: Wow.

Larry Anderson: 'Cause he came to Atlanta on one of his last trips. He's French originally but he lived in New York. He said, exhibiting is the end product of making art. Because it's visual communication and if you haven't communicated whatever it is they get out of it, what you want them to get out of it or whatever, it's not done.

interviewer: So if you just kept it all in your house.

Larry Anderson: It wouldn't exist if the house burned down. And no one would know.

interviewer: So when you create a piece, do you keep your audience in mind or do you just listen to that voice and it comes out and it's out. Or a little of both. Or.

Larry Anderson: A little of both.

interviewer: A little of both.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Like I was thrilled, and you kind of knew I would be, some white supremacist called the gallery and said we're reporting him to the Better Business Bureau.

interviewer: The gallery?

Larry Anderson: Uh huh, for showing this piece.

interviewer: This one?

Larry Anderson: Uh huh. And I thought, where do you file that? It's the idiocy of ...

interviewer: Well aren't those public record? If you file? I'd order one and make some art out of it.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I just think I hurt his feelings. So therefore it's wrong.

interviewer: Do you think all of that, all of the protesting against AIDS or whatever it is, is part of that suppression that they don't want? That there's some people that don't want other people to express themselves or stand up or to talk or just shh. Like, and they hold onto those so tight because they want to keep everybody in line. I don't know, those are the things that i like to explore because ...

Larry Anderson: They blindly believe whatever they want to believe out of convenience. It's not convenient, really. But I'm thinking of this guy who's on t.v. defending Trump. And he said, they need to keep all the gang members and everybody crossing the boarder who come over here to kill us and steal our women. This guy lived in Texas, North Texas. And I'm thinking, he doesn't know much about the construction trade here.

interviewer: The house he lives in was probably ...

Larry Anderson: And picking fruit and vegetables.

interviewer: Right, and he's in Texas.

Larry Anderson: I said, they're coming over here because they don't have jobs. They want to work. And I just thought, wow. And they told him all that and he said nope, they're coming over here because they're bringing drugs, they're gang leaders and they have all the statistics on that. There's less Hispanic Americans living in jail than there are white people.

interviewer: My phone, sorry. So when you hear something like the children being separated at the boarder and all that, is this stuff that starts to germinate?

Larry Anderson: Well how do you make an image out of it?

interviewer: I don't know. Isn't that you.

Larry Anderson: See that's what I always think. How did I get to this?

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: I got to this because they kept talking about it and covering up statues. New Orleans took them down, what are they going to do with them. The Confederate thing in the square in Decatur, so on and so forth.

interviewer: So the images started to form.

Larry Anderson: So then I thought, well in [inaudible 01:16:44], they assumed when they acquiesced the confederate generals and stuff, that they would be tried and hung. Because they were treasons. They were treasonous. And I thought, well, that's about the time Donald Trump said something about he should hang somebody for treason. Because they said something awful about him.

interviewer: Oh boy.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: Yes I do.

Larry Anderson: So, I thought, well, he'll just hang him. Nope you don't need to there, you don't need a tree or anything. You just hang it around their neck.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: And I've read a little bit about the neck tie party things. You know what I'm talking about?

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, that's just sick. And there's a guy, they used to print public post cards of people who attended them, thousands of people would go to lynching. And they'd print post cards and people would buy them and send them to their friends going I attended this. A guy found one in a dresser drawer, in an antique store and was shocked. So then he went on a lookout for them. He's collected a lot of them.

interviewer: Really?

Larry Anderson: Yeah. He lives here. He works at Emery and had a traveling show for a while. There's one guys body, it took two people to carry it off, it was so full of lead.

interviewer: That's just awful.

Larry Anderson: It was awful.

interviewer: The thing that struck me the most was I saw an image once of a hanging. It was in, I think, the history center and it said, if you think this happened so long ago, check out the Nike's. And he had on Nike high tops. So like, it wasn't, it bridged it from oh that's so long ago, that's not anywhere near me, to... that was interesting. I thought that imagery was powerful. With the kids that get separated at the border, I think the thing that keeps jumping into our mind is that those blankets that are made out of tin foil.

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah.

interviewer: Right, like that's the thing that sticks in my... come in here cat. That is a soft cat.

Larry Anderson: She really feels like a rabbit.

interviewer: So. I had a rabbit for a while. Chewed everything but I loved it. When someone buys your pieces and they just go off into the world, indifferent?

Larry Anderson: Pretty much. I love the fact it sold. That it's going to have a home. But back to Michael Venetsi, that friend of mine, he almost had to adopt his work out. He had to interview people to buy. Nah, I buy my art supplies with money.

interviewer: Right. That's funny. 'Cause I do wonder, it's so much of you. It's Kentucky, it's your parents, it's the journey from, it's in there.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: But you're... so once it's out, it's out?

Larry Anderson: Yeah. It's more important that I say it than I own it.

interviewer: Great sentence. That might be your quote. I love that. That might be your.

Larry Anderson: There are different kinds of artists. In that they are people who like to make things, that's me. There's people who like to see things, once they've finished. And those are pretty possessive. And there's people like Warhol who just want to think up the idea and have somebody else make it.

interviewer: And that's all.

Larry Anderson: I think everything man. Oh no, not man. Everything exists on the planet is fine for art. Subject wise, in it's material.

interviewer: Wow.

Larry Anderson: When I was doing this screws and x's and AIDS thing, first starting. I did a little drawing of them. I ripped that paper and I'd take them out. And I'd take a spoon and I would dig a little hole. Dip it in rhoplex, which is the base of acrylic, it just dries clear, like Elmer's glue and I'd burry it. I'd go back and dig them up later. Usually it only took a couple of days for it to dry. And then I used to make collages. I didn't know what I was going to do with them initially. And then later I owned a studio for a long time.

interviewer: And then it just ...

Larry Anderson: Then one day I thought, hmm I can use this.

interviewer: What do you see? She looks like she's seeing something. Oh. There's a little bug on the floor I think.

Larry Anderson: Eat it.

interviewer: Ah, it was a fly. So, when do you remember, it doesn't have to be dramatically the very first time. But do you remember, and it sounded like it was that painting class, when it clicked for you. Like oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. Was there, you know, because you said you drew as everybody draws, and most people draw as a child, there's that coloring and all that kind of stuff. When did you go, oh this is important to me. Like, my being, painting or drawing. Or expressing. When, was there a time that you went, I can't, this is for me.

Larry Anderson: In that painting class. It was kind of like, damn, why didn't someone tell me about this before? But the interesting thing was the fact that I liked to make up things rather than have reality. I like things, to put things in situations.

interviewer: How did you, so on that. You took a class. So when you go into a class, they have the materials there, they kind of give you guidance, all of that. When did you take that and try it at home? Like, when did you say, I just have to do this. Or tell me about it.

Larry Anderson: It was after that painting class that summer. I decided to go to Wichita State. I graduated from a junior college. It was more than anyone. My twin went out there, but he's an accountant. So he got that half of the brain. He really did.

interviewer: It sounds like that's polar.

Larry Anderson: He is left, right side.

interviewer: You graduated from...

Larry Anderson: Ju-co. And then I thought, well. I didn't' know much about the art department at all. It was all a very young faculty. And I didn't know about being an artist. I became a teacher. I got an art ed degree with a painting minor. Because I went 5 years. Because I knew what teachers did.

interviewer: Right. It was tangible.

Larry Anderson: But there is no framework for me to know what an artist did.

interviewer: So you had this thing.

Larry Anderson: I could be a teacher and I knew what that was.

interviewer: Right. But it's this I want to teach, because I like this.

Larry Anderson: And that was from that first painting class, not being told. I thought well I'm going to go evangelize art.

interviewer: I like it. So again.

Larry Anderson: And really, I taught. I made my kids take tests on history, color theory. I thought, how do you know you're going to take tests in art class.

interviewer: That's funny. You can paint your answers but you gotta answer. So again, painting class. At home. When did that happen? Did you go buy paints? Water colors? Did you start drawing? Like, how did you take what you felt, not learned, felt in the painting class and brought it home, or like, tried it outside of class.

Larry Anderson: That first summer, or the summer between my sophomore and junior year of college, I lived at home and I worked on a bridge crew. That isn't important. Terry and I were always in the car together, because we went to school together and stuff. But he had the car and he was living in Kan City, working for the Kan City Star, where my Uncle worked. And I was trapped with Mom and Dad. And I lost it. I mean, I had a little nervous break down, if you want to call it that.

Now my brother's a straight A student, he had one of those minds where he just trapped information. I took geometry and I saw pretty pictures. And he took geometry and it made perfect sense. Stuff like that. I hated it. But I was crying uncontrollably. It's this thing of being a twin, you're really one brain in two bodies for lots of people. I was just so different than he was. Mom would be like, yeah. You need to quit picking on your brother. Well, Terry admitted to me years later than he was trying to make me made so he could show me how stupid I was.

interviewer: Wow.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. So, I went to the shrink. Well, they took me to a shrink in Salina, Kansas, which was the closest city of any size.

interviewer: And about how old were you?

Larry Anderson: Oh I was 19? 20?

interviewer: Right. And this is ...

Larry Anderson: That summer between junior and senior year.

interviewer: And you had had painting class already?

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah.

interviewer: Okay, so you, this was the culmination of all of this and then you had touched this thing that really ...

Larry Anderson: Yeah, and I did this drawing. I have it now because Mom and Dad had it and I got it when they died. It's hands behind the face, the face is disappearing where they fingernails are. That's how I felt.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: I never told them that.

interviewer: Did you know it?

Larry Anderson: Kind of, yes. And this is when I moved in with John [inaudible 01:28:32] and I liked the drawing so I started painting it. So they had it, it was about this big. And I never finished it but I made some notes on there, where or what I wanted to do. And that painting really was probably the first, other than Killing Jesus, was the first one I consciously did, or unconsciously did because that's the way I felt.

interviewer: Right. It was a direct translation.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I was trying to claw my way out of my head.

interviewer: What do you mean?

Larry Anderson: So this friend of mine wanted the painting with the notes on it. I said, no. It's not done. See that tin type up there? I mean tin painting?

interviewer: Yes.

Larry Anderson: He was from Cuba actually. He had that and he knew how much I loved it.

interviewer: So you traded.

Larry Anderson: He said I'll give you that painting, or tableau for that painting and I said okay. So it ended up in Washington, D.C. I don't know here he is now.

interviewer: So you went to the 1819, had the class, it was all coming to a head.

Larry Anderson: And [crosstalk 01:30:08].

interviewer: Right, right, went to the shrink.

Larry Anderson: Went to the shrink. I asked Dad, Mom had died, that wasn't important that she'd died, but, I asked Dad, where'd you find that shrink anyway? Cause he was really good.

interviewer: Oh, good.

Larry Anderson: He said, oh. That was a guy who had been in the military with our doctor. World War II. Cause I never knew, how do you find a shrink up there.

interviewer: In general, how do you find a good one here.

Larry Anderson: So, Dr. Neustadt had recommended him, so he was good. We'd sit there and not even talk sometimes cause he waited for me to tell him. The best advice he ever gave me, and my Aunt Torah was paying for this. She was a great Aunt, on Dad's side. And I'd go out there and she'd go, is he helping? I said, yes. Are you done? Nope.

interviewer: Oh, right.

Larry Anderson: She's a funny woman, very direct. In the most wonderful way. It was a confusing time for Larry, big time. And when I got to the university Wichita State, and so I'm taking classes again. It was so much more sophisticated and literally I had two classes I had to take outside the art building because when I went to Junior College I took all my requirements.

interviewer: Of course, right.

Larry Anderson: So it was like going to art school, like ACA or SCAD. Because I never left the building.

interviewer: Yeah, which is great. I went to Portfolio Center. And I'm actually up for an adjunct professorship at SCAD maybe. Strategy Class. Yeah, I used to work for Luke Sullivan too. When I found out you had taught there, I was like, I was meant to meet him at some point.

Larry Anderson: Yeah!

interviewer: So when you went to the shrink, as you called him. And you had taken the class, you went to the shrink, and they started helping, were you painting? Were you?

Larry Anderson: Ah, that's when I was making that painting.

interviewer: Right. So, such a, such a deep direct expression.

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah.

interviewer: And then you knew, this is my, this is my.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, this is okay. But again, I never felt like I needed to finish the painting. Because the idea was there. That was a weird one. I liked it.

interviewer: Because, will it ever be finished. I mean, isn't that the on going?

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Probably not. I mean, you know, it's going to be what it's going to be. The, I'm trying to think. What I was going to tell you. There were some very good teachers at WHU at the time. One of them I hated, but we didn't get along anyway. Fincher was so genuine about his belief in art that I took finger drawing and painting from him. He was a great painter. I give you an idea of how he functioned. We were having a final drawing and I had done this corpse matted in a separate box in the bottom. Up here. I forget what was in the top. The corpse had a piece of apple pie on his chest.

interviewer: Naturally.

Larry Anderson: It was wrapped in an American flag. And it was about Vietnam. And I did another piece called No Matter How You Slice It, It's Still Boring.

interviewer: So this just started coming out of you. Like, no!

Larry Anderson: Yeah, all of this kind of human rights stuff. I mean, this idea, this stupid idea that politicians have. And, so, he didn't do this to my drawing, I would have died. I would have left the room, I don't know. He was going down the row, finished drawings all had to be matted. He got to one kids drawing, he picked it up and he turned it to the wall and went to the next one. Yeah. That was the worst thing I ever saw in a critique.

interviewer: That would hurt.

Larry Anderson: That's devastating.

interviewer: Yeah. My Mom took a, she lives at Lake Oconee, about an hour twenty from here. In one of those Del Webb retirement resort kind of things. And they had a famous painter come in and do a class with them. A landscape guy, right. Lakes, leaves, that stuff. And she was, she'd never painted before. Never done anything like that before. Devout Catholic though. You know.

Larry Anderson: Follow the rules.

interviewer: Raised by nuns. Saved every penny. Drove across town for a penny on a gas tank kind of thing. So, this is her first peek out of all of that, you know. He comes over to her and he's like, I don't even know how to save this. And he walked off. That was it. Door closed, she's never going to do anything. So, you know how I found out? She didn't tell me. She didn't tell anybody. She just didn't go back to the class. You know those watered and fired, you can go paint pottery.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

interviewer: Happy Father's Day, and you have a coffee mug or whatever. We went for my daughters birthday and I got a bowl, my daughter got a plate. And I said, Mom, what are you getting. And she said, I can't, I don't want to do that. And she was really.

PART 3 OF 6 ENDS [01:36:04]

interviewer: I can't. I don't want to do it. And she was really- it was odd. Because everybody, a four year old can paint. You just paint a mug, and she wouldn't do it. And I said, “Mom.” My daughter was like, “Grandma just paint a plate.” And she was like, “I don't want to do it.” And the story came out. It was like two years. She won't do anything that has to do with drawing or anything now because that-.

Larry Anderson: Fear of failure.

interviewer: Reinforced fear of failure. So that's what I wanted to ask too is I think it is very hard to stand in front of people and say I'm an artist, because you immediately set yourself apart. Not necessarily above but separate from and in a knowledge base that they assume they don't have. It's a have or have not. You're an artist or you're not.

Larry Anderson: Artists are- you can go to a blacktop party in ripped up jeans and a t-shirt. There's the artist.

interviewer: Right. Right, that's true. That's true.

Larry Anderson: I said you have a lot of leeway. I said doesn't mean you take it.

interviewer: Right, but it's there.

Larry Anderson: But think about that. There's a preconceived notion of who you are. You either give it to them or you don't.

interviewer: Right. No problem. I'm gonna play with your cat.

Larry Anderson: I'll tell you something else. My balance since I have Parkinson's is awful. Did you read any of that?

interviewer: Your gallery person told me. But since you brought it up, we'll talk about that, because I've had brain surgery too.

Larry Anderson: Really?

interviewer: Yes, sir.

Larry Anderson: For?

interviewer: Tumor.

Larry Anderson: Wow.

interviewer: So, different. Much different. Can I look while you're gone? Just at the books.

Larry Anderson: Sure.

interviewer: Okay. [pause 01:38:02]

I love the monkey in that pose right there.

Larry Anderson: Isn't that great? I got that in San Francisco in Chinatown.

interviewer: I'm going there.

Larry Anderson: I just saw Hank, he was wandering around. He saw it first. He said, “I don't know.” [inaudible 01:40:11] I know he is. And I did it.

interviewer: That's great. That's funny.

Larry Anderson: What was your brain surgery? A tumor, you said?

interviewer: Yeah. When you're pregnant a lot of stuff grows faster than it would and I had a tumor at the brain still. Nasty little thing.

Larry Anderson: Scary shit.

interviewer: Especially when you're older. So, Parkinson's.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I was diagnosed with it. I've been shaking for a long time.

interviewer: Affecting your work, is that why you went? Or did you just get tired of-?

Larry Anderson: No. I just thought- I went to the doc. And she said, “It just comes with gray hair. It's a non essential tremor.” I said, “Okay.”

interviewer: Right, right.

Larry Anderson: And I thought. I ran into a friend of mine, who's a doctor. Who I knew in med school at Emory because of John. He says, “How long have you had Parkinson's?” And then I said, “Do I?” Because there's no physical tells. They count the number of shakes in a minute.

interviewer: Oh, some sort of equation? Math equation?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, because another doctor did the same thing. So, I went and then I ran into Jim and this other doctor I know in med school. And he said, “What are you taking for your Parkinson's?” I said, “Nothing. He hasn't recommended anything.” He said, “What's his name?” I got a call the next day from that doctor. Jim called her.

interviewer: Oh, gave him-.

Larry Anderson: List him out, he does natural shakes I think.

interviewer: Good.

Larry Anderson: And I changed doctors. That's why I changed. So I ask her and Doctor Factor Henry's great. Factor told me about this brain surgery. He said, “Now, it doesn't always work.” Takes about five, six months to get approval to do it. Psych tests, motor skills, all that stuff. So I went through all that. I finally got approval. At the time I was retiring. Oh great, I won't have insurance. That worked out. Because it's not cheap.

interviewer: Does insurance count it as elective? Good.

Larry Anderson: Not anymore, Doctor Dubose is one of the men who pioneered the operation at Emory. Emory's the one who did it first. He's my doc, he's a funny man. Anyway, he took me in. I had Hank shave my head the night before because I didn't want to shave over there. So he shaved it. I don't know what razor they did. Cut the skin back, drilled two holes. Size of quarters.

interviewer: Oh, wow.

Larry Anderson: And they had of course done all these x-rays, all those things. And they were there, headed with the wires. Hopefully. They hit it the first time with old Hank. Then they wake you up.

interviewer: And then what?

Larry Anderson: Count backwards, by sevens from 101.

interviewer: I couldn't do that.

Larry Anderson: It takes some concentration, I'll tell you. But they do that and then they give you some easier tasks. I do remember that one though. And I said, “You're kidding.” That's what I told them. But they wanted to make sure you're okay. Basically before they see are you up.

interviewer: Oh, I see. They wake you up while they're still- yup.

Larry Anderson: Yup, while I'm still on the table. To make sure everything- and then there's battery packs.

interviewer: Yup.

Larry Anderson: So the batteries-.

interviewer: Is there like a port?

Larry Anderson: Nope, these are battery packs. I got one each side.

interviewer: But how do they change the battery? Surgically? [crosstalk 01:44:43] Oh yeah, okay.

Larry Anderson: The ones they made up, it was how high they were gonna set it. They said, “Tell us if you feel this.” It was mostly my fingers that tingle. I tell them, "Nope. Too high."

interviewer: Oh, it's because it made you too-?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, so it's five hours. I never worried a day. It was the weirdest thing. This will be good. I wasn't crazy elated. But it did work out. I've seen people that didn't.

interviewer: Didn't, they just remove it?

Larry Anderson: Nope. They're better, but certain Parkinson's traits are you freeze up. Doesn't help that. It just helps shaking.

interviewer: I knew a guy that played the piano that had that. He froze up and then he had an operation. And he could play again. He cried, cried, cried while he was playing the first time.

Larry Anderson: Oh yeah. There's some wonderful success stories out there about that. At the time of all this, I made my students do it for years. Hank and I are cleaning up the backyard. I found a stick, it's about this long. It's an arch. Two feet long. And I said, “I want this stick, Hank. Do not throw this stick away. I'm gonna lent my studio and you will not throw it away.” Why? I said, “I'm gonna draw with it.” And he looked at me and rolled his eyes. This is one of those times when I was really tired of thinking so much. The times of my heart that I just think, “Ah, that's not fun.”

interviewer: You wanna stop the hamster from running a little bit and just.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, let's just have some fun. So I never drew animals. Except pigs, I guess. But basically, it was just, it didn't interest me. But I download a bunch of pictures of rabbits and chickens and horses and stuff like that.

interviewer: I saw your rabbits. Yeah, that's my favorite animal.

Larry Anderson: Oh really?

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: And so yeah, I drew- rabbits are so much fun to draw. So I did that on some paper on the wall, where I draw. I did the stick and ink. I'd look at the- I'd hang the picture next to it and I just start drawing.

interviewer: With the stick in the backyard.

Larry Anderson: With the broken end of the stick. It's so unpredictable.

interviewer: Right?

Larry Anderson: That it gives you lines you don't even want or try to get. You could never duplicate it again.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: It truly laugh of line. The rabbit's an excuse to make a line.

interviewer: Got it.

Larry Anderson: To draw. And I thought, “These are kind of fun.” But then I thought, “Well, that's what you wanted, Larry.” Because sometimes I just get too heavy.

interviewer: Well, rabbits are kind of fun and there's levity to a rabbit. You can't be serious with those ears.

Larry Anderson: I did one. That was so fun. He was an angry rabbit. I think an old angry rabbit. And it sold immediately. But then I thought, “Okay well now- and here's my skills that I give myself. How many rabbits can I put on a piece of paper and not fuck it up?” Because it's like the more people you put in a portrait, the harder it is. Because if you mess one up, no matter how good the others are.

interviewer: You're gonna see that.

Larry Anderson: It's messed up. So I drew six of them. It turned out great. Went to the show.

interviewer: How'd you know not to draw seven?

Larry Anderson: I don't know. See I don't believe in those odd even things.

interviewer: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: That's the rules because if you have three flowers, you have four spaces. One, two, three, four negative space. You can't have odd without even. It's that bullshit of- and plus the number two just because I'm a twin. It worked out. I went to a show in China because the year of the rabbit.

interviewer: Oh, right. And you took the-.

Larry Anderson: I set it over there. While they pay for all that.

interviewer: So when you get inspired by something, like whether it's the AIDS or this or whatever it is. How do you know when you're done with the topic or it's out of you or?

Larry Anderson: Tired of it?

interviewer: You just know, you just start to get like, I'm not inspired to do anything anymore.

Larry Anderson: And that's the thing I used to worry about. That I couldn't continue a theme. Some things fall on bigger categories. Like the Christian revenge theory.

interviewer: Religion. Right, right.

Larry Anderson: So the work may look very different, like the Jesus one. But it's about Christian revenge.

interviewer: So a lot of things fall as sub categories and could be sublines of work.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. The day they shot all those kids in the school in Florida, it happened late afternoon. We were at dinner, some woman I used to work with and her husband came up. We didn't know anything about her. He goes, “Time for thoughts and prayers. Bunch of kids were killed.” Ironic that god, just such a thing.

interviewer: Oh, right. Our prayers go out to what-.

Larry Anderson: So that's when I thought, “Well, how do you draw that?” You can't just say, “Don't kill children.” That's not nice. How do you get people to kind of realize...?

interviewer: And it was another child that did it.

Larry Anderson: Yup. And I have another piece downstairs. Thou shall not kill. It's a red, white, and blue bibles cut in the shape of guns. Handguns.

interviewer: Yeah. There was something on the- there were a couple of them. Couple of bibles.

Larry Anderson: Red, white, and the blue one.

interviewer: Oh, that's right.

Larry Anderson: Different colors.

interviewer: So, yeah, yeah. Because it took me a second because the perspective is a little- to see that it was a gun. Because I was like oh, this is cut in the shape of oh! Larry.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I mean that's wrongful association. Well there's an angel up there. I'll get it for you.

interviewer: You know a kid got expelled from school because he chewed his Pop-Tart in the shape of a gun?

Larry Anderson: I heard that. That's an angle from the NRA. She also did that just a [inaudible 01:52:38]

interviewer: I love it.

Larry Anderson: I do too. About the hat thing, I got thinking about that. I was invited to my alma matter, stayed to do a show in their gallery. Of course mom and dad lived three hours from there and they came down and my sisters from Kansas City. Terry was still alive then. He was living with my sister because they had AIDS. And he lived with her for four months. With them, I should say. We were getting dressed and mom came in the bedroom, she goes, “Larry, I don't know how to tell you this.” So I said, “Oh, the truth would be nice.” She goes, “I'm really uncomfortable with that hat piece. The way you used God's name.” So I was ready for her. I showed her a tape that had won the Reader's Digest Award on the politics in Cobb County. It opens up with this guy reading the Bible. He's up with his leg turned to the crowd. And they pan in on him. And it says, “See? Jesus wants us to hate.” Oh, mama went ballistic.

interviewer: I bet she did.

Larry Anderson: That was not-.

interviewer: I bet she did.

Larry Anderson: So she was explaining the hat piece to people at the opening.

interviewer: And that's the art. Wasn't that the whole like- I would be like my work is done here.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I mean it was so funny. It was both wonderful and funny.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: But I had-.

interviewer: And what's funny is that- you were probably the only person that understood what was happening. Like the full scope of what she was experiencing.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, sure. That's where I also show that piece where it come from. Because that was about my family. And each one of them made a video at my request. It was about having gay members in the family. In that video, screen's only about this big. And those are genetic little fortune that you can spin. And have it land. The golden penis will stop at on asexual, bisexual, transsexual, whatever.

interviewer: Whatever. Yeah.

Larry Anderson: I had to watch Wheel of Fortune to figure out how they- what the wheel looked like. I was so excited. Some of it was glitter.

interviewer: Right. The big money.

Larry Anderson: That was there. And there's another video too that's from old super eights and contemporary videos and so on and so forth. The funerals, weddings, kids riding their tricycles. So on and so forth. It didn't have any sound. It just...

interviewer: The images of it.

Larry Anderson: The images just going in. And I loved that piece. The exhibit of that piece. I loved that piece more than any of them.

interviewer: I haven't seen that. I haven't seen it. So, I'll go-.

Larry Anderson: I'll show it to you. I'll give you a catalog. It starts out with the birthing a baby. Literally. Baby crusting from a vagina. Head on the baby is about this big. And once you realize what it is-.

interviewer: Right, right, right. No!

Larry Anderson: Then built into the frame is an LED sign that scrolls, “Where do queers come from... vaginas.” Real subtle.

interviewer: That's great! In case you were unclear.

Larry Anderson: And there's a blue wall with my blue- because the wall on where the baby is. I went to a birthing center and picked the color of the walls. And then there was a column. A ledge or ledge that comes out and holds the books that people can write in. A book they fill them out. And one of them is parent of the gay child, sibling of a gay child. And each book is very specific. And then there's the baby blanket with a concern on it. I don't know if it's his or mine. I had both of them. But it's blue of course. I had the glass etched. That says, “Blue is for boys. Pink is for girls.” I graduated in a class of six.

interviewer: Wow.

Larry Anderson: From high school. 23 kids in the whole high school. It only lasted one more year. It consolidated four schools, it makes about 20 graduates in a class.

interviewer: A crowd.

Larry Anderson: And the hold is one county school. In our school, there were pictures of every class.

interviewer: The class picture.

Larry Anderson: They were big.

interviewer: Yeah, yeah.

Larry Anderson: So I made one of a hundred students. On the wall behind that it starts out one out of a hundred. It goes one percent to- down to ten out of a hundred. It's who's gay, who's not. The next wall, onto the next column is wallpaper with 150 photographs of my family. Starting at the bottom with the...

interviewer: Your dysfunctional family?

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Every family's dysfunctional.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: With home's fit and all that. Going up to nieces and nephews at the time. And in the middle of that it's a Wheel of Fortune. On the edges, it's the same size as the photographs is the monitors.

interviewer: Of the videos.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, the videos. It's 23 feet wide. So the videos are a part of it. Of course, you can hear the sound all the time. You're looking at the other thing.

interviewer: That seems like the whole time I've been here and the places we've been and things you've talked about. That seems like the culmination of-.

Larry Anderson: Oh, it's the big one.

interviewer: Yeah. Because I mean that's-.

Larry Anderson: I was asked to be in the show about family. This came out of conversation I had about God in Cobb County. We titled it. Because I thought do I do something about the family you created as a gay person? Or do you do your family? I thought, “I'd do my family.” And they all said yes.

interviewer: That's incredible.

Larry Anderson: That's what's incredible. Southerners especially.

interviewer: Religious southerners from a small town.

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh. I would never have gotten them all. Brother's a Baptist preacher. The basic essence is-.

interviewer: But why do those things have to even be at odds? Like that's where I want to get to is where-.

Larry Anderson: The Bible.

interviewer: Right. The line [inaudible 02:00:37] that's why.

Larry Anderson: Even thinks it's genetic. That's pretty good.

interviewer: Well it gets closer.

Larry Anderson: He just doesn't think he should act on it because it's a sin.

interviewer: See and this is where I get into my questioning is let go of control of your life. Turn it over to God, God knows what He's doing. God has a plan for you.

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh. I love his wife. He was always posting it. They'll go to religious camps. They just got back from Jerusalem. Third tour. And how lucky she is to be a Christian. And I'm thinking, “You're lucky you weren't born in America.” And are a Christian by default.

interviewer: And are free to be.

Larry Anderson: I said, “You're not in a Muslim country where you would be Muslim if you were born there.”

interviewer: Right, right.

Larry Anderson: I never told her any of that. I'm thinking, they just don't question anything.

interviewer: Yeah. Well and you're right too. The original sent really weighs on me. So you're telling me if something happened to Elizabeth, according to a certain bible, she would go to hell because she wasn't absolved of her original sin? What?

Larry Anderson: I don't even understand the crucifixion. Kill somebody to save you? Kill someone else?

interviewer: He died for you. Why did they even let that happen- I don't know.

Larry Anderson: And of course I've always wanted to do a piece about the communion and the cannibalism it represents.

interviewer: You would've loved this as much as I loved it. I am in a packed church on Christmas Eve. Packed. Standing room. Priest turns around. Body and blood of Christ. It is silent in the church because he's doing body and blood of Christ. Little kid, four years old. “Gross!”

Larry Anderson: That's great.

interviewer: Three seconds, everyone starts laughing. But there was the three seconds of parent you know.

Larry Anderson: Well I've had [crosstalk 02:03:00] Christians don't drink wine. Then what about communion? Oh, it's changed to blood. I'm going, “That's a lot better!”

interviewer: Yeah, that's much better. Doesn't give you the headaches.

Larry Anderson: Kate, you're so spoiled. You don't find anyone who'll pet you won't you.

interviewer: Well, she's making me work for it. But that is a soft cat.

Larry Anderson: She's so pretty.

interviewer: Yeah, she is. That's my favorite artist. It would have to be nature. I mean the things that nature makes. I saw a seahorse, I was just in Hawaii. I saw a seahorse. Blew my mind. Blew my mind. The way they just move. They don't have arms to like- there's no visual propulsion happening, but they just move through the water because they have these little things that just go. And then he got to the top of the tank and he was looking down. He just looked up. I was like, “Wow! He's making eye contact!”

Larry Anderson: You can't have her microphone, Kate.

interviewer: You can look at it.

Larry Anderson: You talking there, Kate?

interviewer: See if she'll bat it around. So, never quit painting your whole life once you- or creating. Let's say that because you have different mediums a little bit. You have mixed media and you have-.

Larry Anderson: I do sculptures. I used to do a lot of instillation. You don't store all that crap. Not a thousand.

interviewer: But that's what happens. What do you do if once it's out, if it not sold?

Larry Anderson: Well, I know when no ones going to buy that piece.

interviewer: Christmas?

Larry Anderson: I used to tell Hank, I need him for my retrospective. Which was [inaudible 02:04:49] and then I had one. It was a good thing I-.

interviewer: You had it, yeah.

Larry Anderson: There were pieces, there were 10, 11 pieces I brought home. I did more installations, [crosstalk 02:05:02] hat piece.

interviewer: Wow. Then that's one of the things. I have an eight foot by five foot drawing of a bear. Or painting. Painting of a bear. There's only one place it fits. Then what? I don't know what's gonna happen to the bear. I just had to have it.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, I understand. We never buy anything. Never buy anything because it's a nice color.

interviewer: It'll match. It's the other way around. I have the bear and I'm like well. Well.

Larry Anderson: Scale is more important.

interviewer: So, never have quit.

Larry Anderson: And that's something a student said to me one time. My brother was talking to him and he lives in New York. He says, “You're still making stuff, aren't you?” It never occurred to me that I would do anything else. That I would stop.

interviewer: Almost like postpartum, because you birthed something and then...

Larry Anderson: Oh, absolutely. You put so much energy into a show and then you just go [sigh 02:06:23] then you have to relax.

interviewer: Or like you said with the rabbits and the stick. Or do something fun or just a palate cleanser kind of thing.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. I had a friend who asked me if I did this because I was shaking. I never thought of it but probably that was part of it.

interviewer: Oh, the rabbits?

Larry Anderson: Yeah, because I could stand back and the line was shaky. It was interesting.

interviewer: Right.

Larry Anderson: But I had an uncle, Fred, great-uncle. Tour's brother, who had Parkinson's. And she did too, but she never had it as bad as he did. Shaking wise. And he was just the uncle who shook. So I'm like that. I'm the art teacher who shook.

interviewer: Well, after talking to you, if you didn't have the Emory procedure, I can see you incorporating it into- like oh, well this is gonna be part of the making of the next thing. Or where I am next, the shaking is gonna be- I'm gonna experiment with this. I can see you just taking it on and going well.

Larry Anderson: That's it. That's what I got to deal with.

interviewer: Right, not as a stop but as a pivot.

Larry Anderson: Being an artist is both fun and scary sometimes.

interviewer: Have you ever- so, why scary?

Larry Anderson: It happens if I don't work for a while. I get nervous that I can't do it anymore. Not physically, but the physical act of making.

interviewer: It's almost the opposite of why people don't start.

PART 4 OF 6 ENDS [02:08:04]

Speaker 1: It's almost the opposite of why people don't start. You know, that's interesting.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Because most people don't start out of fear of failure, and you don't want to quit out of fear of losing it.

Larry Anderson: Like I say, by the time I get going now ... Because I used to make a list. Like, what if I do this, what if I do this? What if I ... Gold leaf paper, and then draw on it? What if I gold leaf paper and then an etching then goes over it? What if I do this? And so I know a lot of technique, because I'm naturally curious.

Speaker 1: Right.

Larry Anderson: And I had a woman tell me one time when I was a printmaker. She goes, "How do you do it, Larry? How do you just decide you're going to put the line there? Because in printmaking, you can change a lot of things. And when you're doing etching, you work on it for a while, you proof it, and then you draw on the proof and figure out what you're gonna do next. Are you gonna color, are you gonna draw, so and so forth. And she was a printmaker, and she said, "I just don't get it." She goes, "And then you leave all that white paper." And it works.

Speaker 1: Perfectly good white space to fill up.

Larry Anderson: She was funny. It's never empty. It's full of white.

Speaker 1: That's nice. So-

Larry Anderson: It's like pushing away ... When are ... It's funny. 'Cause what I'll do is I'll sometimes, I don't like [inaudible 02:09:37] so I can annotate. Like, I want this drawing to look like it was breathed out of the paper. Oh, so soft. This is [inaudible 02:09:47] I don't know.

Speaker 1: Right.

Larry Anderson: And so that had a challenge. And I used to do things like ... I got, because I moved away from the figure, and some of the [AIDS 02:10:00] stuff had heads in them, and those figures, I had to draw faces, but I stopped doing faces for a long time. From books, postcards of Roman, Greek statues. 'Cause that's kinda the look I wanted. The bunny paintings were a good example of that.

Speaker 1: You had the one where the perspectives weren't ...

Larry Anderson: Oh. The mighty Venus de Milo? That's Milo.

Speaker 1: That's-

Larry Anderson: And it took me a long time to figure [inaudible 02:10:35] go through gaps in that. I-

Speaker 1: Yeah, 'cause the guy in New York or wherever told you not to do that.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Do that.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. And Venus de Milo ... See that Salvador Dali one over there? That statue?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: I was working. I was drawing it. I was collecting them. And that's how the collection happened. Let's see an image that kind of look like a reference to Venus de Milo, or a bad one, or a good one, or whatever. Oh, bottom. And so, now look at all these Venus de Milo. And I was going to show at Sandler Hudson in our old space. And I thought, these all look different, but they're all about beauty.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Larry Anderson: So it's a beauty contest.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's ...

Larry Anderson: And then, during that time, I was building shelves that they sit on. I went over and critiqued this woman, and go over, and she gives me a hug. She was a friend and ex-student at ACA. And she had a daughter who's a lesbian. And she said, "I have a daughter, named her a lesbian, not just lesbian." I know what she means, too. And she said, "I just can't help her." Her daughter's 30-something. So, I thought, that's mom. The Venus de Milo is still strong and beautiful, but have no arms to hold you [crosstalk 02:12:33] and protect you.

Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I would've been like, "Oh!"

Larry Anderson: And then it went to another level. So sometimes, I just have to do it.

Speaker 1: And sometimes, like with the Venus de Milo, something hits you about it, or like the box with [inaudible 02:12:46], and then you start, before you even know why, you know there's something.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, it's hard to convince young people, just do that. Just go with it. You don't know.

Speaker 1: This is what started happening to me. Very weird. I started finding everywhere I went, traveling, Hawaii, New York, in Dallas I found one: washers.

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Speaker 1: Round, metal washers. Shapes, sizes, compositions. Everywhere. I have like 72 of them. I don't know why the hell I pick them up. I don't look for 'em. I just see them randomly. I'll be running, and I'm like, "Fuckin' washer. Washer. I'm picking up washers." Now I have 74 of them. I don't know, I just have them in a bowl.

Larry Anderson: I had-

Speaker 1: I figure later, there'll be a reason to have 'em. Maybe not.

Larry Anderson: I had a crock, just an old brown crock and mat in the studio for long time with knives in it, which are nice and stuff.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you said it a minute ago. A hundred butcher knives in there.

Larry Anderson: I have about 1,000 now. But you know, you hold stuff in your studio. You have a junk box where you keep things. I never know-

Speaker 1: When it's going to become clear to you why ...

Larry Anderson: One day, so I juried a show in Mississippi. [inaudible 02:14:16] And [Joy Rice 02:14:19], who I know now, so talented, mysterious woman, she may be one of the quietest people I've ever met in my whole life. And she had done a piece, I didn't know it was hers until I gave it first place. It was a model print, do you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Larry Anderson: Okay. Lots of layers deep, it was kind of like Morris Louis's Veil paintings. They cease to be color in making this kind of a stirred gray, this more complicated gray that she saw for layers. And not necessarily shape changes, stuff with squares or maybe areas or whatever. But then she'd taken an X-ACTO knife and cut into the paper and folded it back. So it was an incredible white lines that went through there like lightning. And so I was giving it to her in the show, and while I gave [inaudible 02:15:27] I got to her piece, I said "You well communicate well with your work. This is an amazing piece. I want to know how you can take a knife and violate the surface of the paper like that, 'cause it's perfect." She goes, "That's not violence, that's vulnerability." Oh my God, male, female.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: Just at that point, you know. The light bulb went off in my head, and I went, "Good grief, there is a difference between men's and women's stuff, you just can't ...

Speaker 1: You almost want the dialogue next to the piece, like ...

Larry Anderson: That's amazing. So I came back, ended up not getting the arms. That crock of mine, I put him on the table. Started looking at him, and then [inaudible 02:16:20] paring knives and stake knives, and started arranging stick figures out of these knives. And I had tried to draw skeletons and stuff, this dance of death, and around the Plague, the Bubonic Plague. I was always fascinated by it, back because I taught print history, and I didn't know it, but skeletons to me all look like a record cover album so ... But those are my things, and I used a smaller knife for the penis. About sexual danger.

Speaker 1: Right.

Larry Anderson: So the reason 1,000 knives was because at the old house I was painting the bedroom ceiling, and then just said it's finished. You know in the Greek painting, where the men are floating down out of the air?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Larry Anderson: What if I hung those three knife figures, and then had knives floating down the wall beside them? So I drilled a hole on it. Shopping at a junk store, I bought all the knives I could find. I drilled a hole in there and pushed a nail, finishing nail so it would stay, so I could just push pin in the wall. I put half of them in condoms.

Speaker 1: No.

Larry Anderson: Because I am what I am, I'm a mystic. Of course there's also that knife thing could be rape, too.

Speaker 1: Right.

Larry Anderson: And then I outlined [inaudible 02:17:56] and drawing on the wall. I call them ghost knives. It got written up in [Latin 02:18:02] America.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. And this idea of danger sexual, sexual danger and when AIDS first happened, it was so scary.

Speaker 1: It really was. I remember that.

Larry Anderson: I had lots of friends dying back when AIDS was confirmed, two of the TABOO guys died from AIDS. One of them died from food poisoning. That was quite a time. So that's why I had those knives. And of course, I didn't put that in my retrospective, it takes up too much room. But those are three drawings Hank will not let me sell.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Larry Anderson: No.

Speaker 1: Those are-

Larry Anderson: Here, come here, I'll show 'em to you.

Speaker 1: All right.

Larry Anderson: In the office.

Speaker 1: I'd love to see 'em. I love walking around your house anyway, just seeing stuff.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah. Well, sure.

This is by a student. It's called [Madonna Supreme 02:19:20].

Speaker 1: I love it.

Larry Anderson: That's a painting. That is not collage.

Speaker 1: Oh, I thought it was collage.

Larry Anderson: Only taco wrapper.

Speaker 1: I thought it was collage for sure.

Larry Anderson: She was that good. That great.

Speaker 1: That's intimidating.

Larry Anderson: And Hank loves cow paintings.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Larry Anderson: Do you know Robert [Sharon 02:19:41]?

Speaker 1: I don't.

Larry Anderson: He draws the blood. One rabbit's drawn with HIV blood, one's drawn with HIV-negative blood.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 02:19:50] Wilson, who I went to school with, Wichita State, we went to Arkansas. Old print by Bob [Osten 02:19:56]. The contemporary rumor ... The guy that painted the farmer and his daughter?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: Grant Wood. I think that's the funniest image, but I think it's a control. The little bit that he drew.

Speaker 1: [inaudible 02:20:23]

Larry Anderson: Friend of mine collects oils gave me that for Christmas ... Student. One of those [starred winds 02:20:29] ... Takeoff on a Goya. Rembrandt.

Speaker 1: Wow, there's a lot in there.

Larry Anderson: And I had ... I bought this at a flea market. Got a little twin. I thought that was cool. This is an engraving.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: And that's a Rembrandt. And let's see here. Stuff.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: This box here, the reliquary actually goes to this paper piece. And I think, this is where religion gets funny to me. Come here, look at the absurdity.

Speaker 1: Right.

Larry Anderson: I was taking paper class in Italy, and I was making lots of paper. Huh, what the hell am I gonna do with this paper? So, then I went down to Arezzo, and there's a famous church in Arezzo. I forget who the artist was, Pre-Renaissance painter who did the Story of the True Cross paintings. Of course, now, that's Biblical. That's things like Nebuchadnezzar had a vision, but the bridge that came into Jerusalem had a log in it that was gonna become the cross. So he had a vision.

Speaker 1: Or the crucifix.

Larry Anderson: Yeah. Just was total absurd. Funny. So those pieces over there ... Have you ever made paper?

Speaker 1: No.

Larry Anderson: Okay. Paper, when you make it, it's 99% water. So there's lots of water involved. The pulp floats and then you put a screen in there, and you lift it up, and the pulp stays on the screen. You transfer it to a blanket, actually it's felt. And if you take them and you just take them off the roller, off the screen ... There it is. It has a lot of water in the pulp. Now that's paper that's been pressed. Still a lot more water's out of it. So I had those three things laying in my window in the monastery where we lived. People kept saying, "Why do you have tampons in your window?" That's not tampons, it's my art.

Speaker 1: Although you could make art with tampons.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah. And so after a while they became tampons to me. So this is after I went and saw The Story of the True Cross and the true absurdity of it all, I thought, well, I'll make a altarpiece to her tampons, Mary's tampons, because when she's pregnant, they became relics.

Speaker 1: Sold 'em on eBay for ...

Larry Anderson: So, this is the ... And that's the annunciation altarpiece. But really, it's stuff I found everyday. White feather, so I plucked a duck. Cortona's a small town in Italy. And I was walking down the studio early in the morning, and there's these white feathers, it looked like an angel had molted.

Speaker 1: Is that right?

Larry Anderson: So pick some of them up, and you can stick 'em in paper, and that's a the quill the story is written with. There's X's in the squares. [crosstalk 02:24:29] So that's the reliquary, and this is the altarpiece.

Speaker 1: I very much want your [inaudible 02:24:38]. I very much want it. You know they have time capsules where they bury stuff and then dig it up in 20 years?

Larry Anderson: No.

Speaker 1: I want to write a story about time capsules, somebody puts a copy of Peter Pan in there-

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Speaker 1: 20 years later, apocalypse has happened, there's only like 20 people alive, and they dig it up, and they take it as the Bible. So Peter Pan becomes the book of ... And everything's built off of ... Right?

Larry Anderson: It's that absurd, yeah.

Speaker 1: The lost boys, and the ...

Larry Anderson: Oh, that's cool. Oh God. Robert Gordy did it, it's his favorite print. He gave a lecture and I liked it. It's called Twin-something. Twin Showgirls or something, two strippers in New Orleans. That's where he's from.

Speaker 1: So you stayed, through all of this, you stayed close to your family.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: Even though you were-

Larry Anderson: I had one period in there where I wouldn't speak to 'em. And that was ... [inaudible 02:25:46] my younger sister being a big baby, I thought, and I told her off.

Speaker 1: But it didn't have anything to do with you coming out or anything like that, it was just-

Larry Anderson: It did, but that was an argument we had on the phone about daddy's little precious girl. We used to call her our pet peeve, and daddy's pet.

Speaker 1: That's funny.

Larry Anderson: And [Kathe Kollwitz 02:26:14] is a great printmaker, photographer, and lived here. That's a gorgeous piece. Student. Guy who stayed at ours, who stayed here, gave me that. This is from the Nuremberg Chronicle, which is considered the first encyclopedia. I bought that at a print auction.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Larry Anderson: The track, they [inaudible 02:26:43] ... I love this piece. Student work. Potato Head protects small fries from good eating. 'Cause they used to play with those. Ain't they gorgeous? Student did that. I did that, that was our previous cat. The [Tig Temper 02:27:08] ... Keifer, guy who now lives in Alabama. That was from a show with Craig called Angry Love. And that's just a Picasso book print, but I like that image.

And let's go up this hall. Close that door so the cats can't get in there.

Oh, students give me stuff. Students. That was a student and friend, who ... Lovely little painting. It's the [inaudible 02:27:48] I'd given an assignment, draw a childhood memory. And she said she used to play hops and smoke cigars down the road.

Speaker 1: I love it. I love the ... I love this. Just an ironing board.

Larry Anderson: It's on black paper.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I love it.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 02:28:05]

Speaker 1: Sexist.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 02:28:09] These are some of my merit badges. Queen. Fairy. Drama queen.

Speaker 1: Love it.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 02:28:18] I love art.

Speaker 1: Do you now?

Larry Anderson: [Ralph 02:28:26] Look at this. Look at the lines. That's a neighbor of mine's.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Larry Anderson: That's an engraving. It's kind of a tour de force. Friend of mine bought that on flea market. 30 years ago when he died he left it to me 'cause a [inaudible 02:28:57] person told him it what it was, and I was so excited when I saw it.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: [Freundlich 02:29:05] I just got that one. That's just beautiful. I've always liked this book, and I found one on auction. It was a good price. One of the TABOO guys. Student, friend. [inaudible 02:29:24] funny, holding this, bloody foot. I think I'm ready to start dating now. [crosstalk 02:29:37] [inaudible 02:29:39], he's a great kid, boy who had a very good sense of humor, which I loved.

Speaker 1: I see.

Larry Anderson: And student. German Bible. I bought that for its technical-

Speaker 1: It's beautiful.

Larry Anderson: That beautiful?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: But, see, the etchings are printed separate from the type, and it's hard to line them up, and they didn't do very well. So ... Buddhist wood cut. Chinese dragon.

Speaker 1: Dragon.

Larry Anderson: Student. This is another Bob Sharon blood drawing.

Speaker 1: Wow. Where does he get it? Himself, or ...

Larry Anderson: He initially got it from himself, a doctor friend of his ... and that [inaudible 02:30:27] mutilates him. I don't know whether was any music, but he didn't want it, so I kept it.

Speaker 1: Why'd he not want it?

Larry Anderson: I don't know. Students, student.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: Jonathan-

Speaker 1: Door shut or no?

Larry Anderson: Shut, yeah. Better do that or the cat probably get in. This is the [inaudible 02:31:00] ... and put a guy's head in there and torturing him.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow.

Larry Anderson: Jonathan [inaudible 02:31:06] smart as hell. Probably the best graduate student I ever taught.

Speaker 1: This seems of you.

Larry Anderson: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Larry Anderson: [inaudible 02:31:17] it's called the Ministry of Marines, and there's a whale and stuff [inaudible 02:31:29]. William Blake, do you know him?

Speaker 1: Mm-mm (negative).

Larry Anderson: He's another one who studied in [inaudible 02:31:35] in France.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Larry Anderson: Your [kirchner 02:31:41] [inaudible 02:31:44] [Ben Ryden 02:31:49]

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's easy to look at it 'cause it's a finished piece, but then to think about creating it that small and that bit.

Larry Anderson: Yeah, that's an engraving.

Speaker 1: See, I can't-

Larry Anderson: And that's an engraving. That's amazing, because when you do an engraving, you can't make a circle with you arm, or too strong a curve. You have to move the plate. So they laid the plate on what's basically sand, bag of sand. It's a little cold pillow. And you turn the plate if you're gonna make a curve. You don't turn your hand.

Speaker 1: That's crazy. [crosstalk 02:32:31]

Larry Anderson: I see things like that, why they left the reflection, I'm thinking, holy shit.

Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that.

Larry Anderson: Yeah.

Speaker 1: All that. Wow.

Larry Anderson: And so this is [Rowanda 02:32:48] who copied the ornamental [inaudible 02:32:50]. And this is appearing in the British Art [Council 02:32:59]. [inaudible 02:33:01] timid performance artist. Forget who ... and then this [Hong developer 02:33:12]. God, [inaudible 02:33:12] his line work.

Speaker 1: [inaudible 02:33:20] That's just her arms.

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: And I told you in [Squares and X's 02:33:33] ...

Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, this is your ...

Larry Anderson: When I came back from Italy, I started cutting up my old work and redesign it. Critically go over an etching. And that's ... What is it called? Analysis of [Being Evil 02:33:58].

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Larry Anderson: I hung her 'cause he was fun of Greek and Roman art, he's like the rich can come up with their own themes. That guy unfortunately died, [inaudible 02:34:16].

Speaker 1: I love it.

Larry Anderson: And these oil pastels [inaudible 02:34:24].

Speaker 1: I have a goat fetish. I want one.

Larry Anderson: Student. [Blackness 02:34:31]. And he's leaving it to his niece, who thinks he's like 13, she thinks it's the funniest thing she's ever seen. Mexico student. [inaudible 02:34:44] Grade school kids. We got big paintings.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Larry Anderson: I just had this Renoir, traded, I bought that from an art fair.

Speaker 1: You're making me feel better, because somebody said to me, like that bear painting that I told you about, somebody said to me, "You know, one day you won't like it anymore." And I was like, "No, I think I'm gonna like it more and more."

Larry Anderson: [crosstalk 02:35:13] since graduate school.

Speaker 1: Yeah, good, that makes me feel better 'cause I was like [crosstalk 02:35:14]

Larry Anderson: And I'll tell ya, art people are like that. These are my guys. These are good wood engravings. He was skinny guy, he moved to France, and Texas. Hey, watch your fingers there. This is a [inaudible 02:35:36].

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: And [inaudible 02:35:41] but normally, you call them [plank 02:35:46], like that. This is called the [hand grain 02:35:49]. You glue a bunch of blocks together, and it's sometimes called a wide line engraving. Love Goya. This here, this was my drawing teacher in college. Tom Fischer. The line work, [inaudible 02:36:16] and they're incredible. He's the most amazing etching student. Good God. He went to Yale.

Speaker 1: Like, I can't ... Wow, interesting.

Larry Anderson: Then down in [inaudible 02:36:33], I bought that for Hank, because he liked it.

Speaker 1: You know, weirdly, it looks familiar.

Larry Anderson: Well, I bought it [inaudible 02:36:40]. He represents the guy.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

Larry Anderson: And, Hank's niece did this little watercolor when she was eight. [inaudible 02:36:54] She gave it to me, not Hank.

Speaker 1: Eight?

Larry Anderson: Uh-huh (affirmative). She gave it to me, not Hank, for [Ramadan 02:37:01], and we have a special communication. She's hysterical.

Speaker 1: She's probably not [inaudible 02:37:08].

Larry Anderson: So did I. This is more something I would love to have more information on, with the ... I always saw it at the roadshow, I went to. I have no idea. I can't find it any information about the semantics or [inaudible 02:37:22]. Tom Woodruff, stayed with us while he was installing an art show at ACA. And Justin [Galler 02:37:42], he had done An Apple A Day Keeps The Doctor Away. He said, "So everyday, I have one apple," and he did a painting of it. He arranged the gallery like a calendar. Behind the paintings ... So anyway, so he stayed with us, and he and Hank are the exact same age. Born same day, same year.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Larry Anderson: And Hank was turning 48 the year after [inaudible 02:38:07]

Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine that did, he was an artist, he is an artist, and he does ... His name is Thomas Arthur [Shaker 02:38:24], and he does art made by mechanisms, but the variance is the art. So, donuts. He would melt like 20 donuts, because they're all made from the exact same process, the exact same machine, but the variance is where he ... So, I have him in my kitchen, a grid of doughnuts that he shellaced.

Larry Anderson: Teacher, school, and then the rest of these ... That was from the TABOO show on Gone With the Wind. A woman who was in Italy with me.

Speaker 1: I like it.

Larry Anderson: And there's a woman who is now in D.C. or Baltimore, actually. She took pictures of [tornadoes 02:39:07] and she gave us a photograph, and the mat, and the frame. We didn't do anything to it, we wanted ...

Speaker 1: And that was your interpretation?

Larry Anderson: She left me with them, so [inaudible 02:39:18]. And that's another one. That was a project of my [inaudible 02:39:34]. And that was me and one of the horse's asses in the apocalypse.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Larry Anderson: For a TABOO show we did.

Speaker 1: Did you know James William?

Larry Anderson: God, that name's familiar.

Speaker 1: He passed away after he had, really, heart, something with his heart. But he was another artist who I thought you might know, because he was ...

Larry Anderson: Professional stitchings I found in a gallery in Italy.

PART 5 OF 6 ENDS [02:40:04]

Larry: Personal restrictions [inaudible 02:40:02] at a gallery in Italy. Who doesn't want to love them?

Speaker 2: I love 'em.

Larry: Got a gorgeous drawing there. This outfit's fabulous. But then you look at the scribble down here. Here's a nice drawing.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah ... That one looks like a hammer.

Larry: Oh yeah there's a hammer in it too.

Speaker 2: Wow ... Yeah there. 'Cause you look at them and they're pleasant initially to look at.

Larry: My work, is that way, I told you.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Larry: There's everything on there. Well people say, why'd you figure out how to draw them. I don't know, I just, I thought.

Speaker 2: It just came out that way?

Larry: Small mother came to give an artist talk at school and these were up and she said, you scare me the way you draw. I said good.

Speaker 2: Yeah, right? Okay.

Larry: Francis Bacon continued his work.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know the name, I don't know the work.

Larry: And then, those are a couple Mayan drawings up there. That photograph I took of that. [inaudible 02:41:37]

Speaker 3: That's right on the bank.

Speaker 2: He was?

Larry: Piggy Bank, Jesus filled a Piggy Bank. That's how I might face it. It's called choke the chicken. She was hysterical and it took a lot of talent. The reduction would cover about 12, well call it a reduction 'cause it's hell to do on plywood.

Speaker 2: Oh wow.

Larry: And, Daniel Red gave me that.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Larry: It's a Duchamp kind of-

Speaker 2: I love that.

Larry: Ann Marie Manker did this. Gal found that old street artist thing. At the flea market one night. I should tell you guys, I was much younger and thinner. Andrew Ross who now teaches in North Carolina. Anne Joffrey's prints.

Speaker 2: Yup.

Larry: This is, well it's Russian Jesus. Dead, alive. We think alike. And that's Brad Price. This is also his.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Larry: It's quite a coffin but, he said, Duchamp.

Speaker 2: So it's Jesus?

Larry: Yeah back to Duchamp again. Duchamp said the best way to stay at, to look at a Rembrandt, is stretched on an ironing board. So he made one.

Speaker 2: I love it. What is that?

Larry: It's a guy who, he's retired over at Georgia, where he taught and he would walk the railroad tracks and pick up stuff, and then make art out of it.

Speaker 2: Nice.

Larry: Finster.

Speaker 2: Oh, wow ... wow.

Larry: And now ... here we go. Studio.

Speaker 2: Ah hah.

Larry: My reindeer chandelier in my studio.

Speaker 2: Yes you do.

Larry: But only 'cause it lights-

Speaker 2: Nice bucks.

Larry: - I did a gun, money. You would print that money up and leave it as tips at the restaurants. I'd get it in circulation.

Speaker 2: Just to see if you'd ever get it back?

Larry: This is where the Vendela Croix is. You now could have just gone to a show called the bomb, curating.

Speaker 2: All this.

Larry: A Dunlop card I got at a restaurant in Paris. It's wonderful. I don't know what made me ever do a painting of it, but I don't have a clue what the name- but I walked right to it. These are the home things. Even if you get the cabinet. Ah, case in point, you don't know why you do things.

Speaker 2: But you do.

Larry: So I did, that exterior of the dollhouse, which you kinda see down there. On the top shelf up there. Another painting.

Speaker 2: Do you have dogs in that one room?

Larry: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh yes.

Larry: And, dollhouse perfect. And that's so our parents want their houses to be perceived.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Larry: A love perspective. So I did that one and that's on rice paper glued to density, population density maps I got from Hank. So-

Speaker 2: Oh.

Larry: - the bottom home, I built a home on top of that. One good drawing inside the bed, I decided to, not a cat, and that's with the other part of that. Let's see what, where I was raised, mom was raised.

Speaker 2: Oh wow.

Larry: And those number's represent things like fish pond and [inaudible 02:46:40], that we're gonna drown in at Dallas. 14 when the lightning hit the tree. Three is right there popcorn helmets.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Larry: Another five being kidnapped.

Speaker 2: You jumped out the window in your sleep.

Larry: I'm a sleepwalker.

Speaker 2: A jumper apparently.

Larry: Two is really curious also. When we got the big one. So anyways, so this is all about. But, I had this thought that the guy in a show before this last one and they had to give a talk on it, so then I did that, so I go let's paint that. And I like cows, surrounded it, it's really life, and in the dollhouse it's a perfect world that everyone wants.

Speaker 2: The ideal that you go for everything, you know?

Larry: When I drew this and this came out of my mouth, I didn't even thought about it. Is about the day I moved Dad to the nursing home at his request 'cause he'd gone blind and deaf. He'd been by himself. I said so it's empty.

Speaker 2: Mm.

Larry: That was harder than at his funeral. It was very primitive at [inaudible 02:48:00]

Speaker 2: I bet.

Larry: - taking him out of the house. He'd lived there all his life.

Speaker 2: 'Cause then you're just at that waiting stage, yeah.

Larry: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yup.

Larry: It was weird.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Larry: Dad didn't know that's why I drew. He just came out.

Speaker 2: And is that when you get to a true state when it's just coming out of you and you're not trying to control- you just, you just-

Larry: I didn't decide to drew an interior dollhouse 'cause I drew the front. It just didn't make so much sense to me.

Speaker 2: Right ... Hi cow. Peaceful.

Larry: That first cow I drew, do you mother well in [inaudible 02:48:44]?

Speaker 2: I don't.

Larry: You might 'cause he's big black and has six spots. So I drew the cow and I took one of these paintings and I drew the spots on the cow with [crosstalk 02:48:56] And I love him. Mrs. Banner she's bought several of my paintings actually. She saw this, I have to have this.

So her sister wanted a cow painting, so I did a cow painting for her.

Speaker 2: Sweet.

Larry: Over a vertical one, and then wouldn't buy it. She wanted vertical, so now I'm stuck with that one.

Speaker 2: I'm sure there'll be people that wouldn't really give a-

Larry: Oh it's turned into a couple of shows. These are all the mount that I just, ass man, chicken hawk meets older guy at the caves and the men are all called chickens.

Speaker 2: Ahh. I thought they were Twinkies?

Larry: There's that too.

Speaker 2: Oh.

Larry: Closet case, cocksucker, drag queens in a mustache, faggot.

Speaker 3: My bull stinks right now.

Larry: And fag stank, fag hey. It's I want to frustrate people. This is a golf game that's a drama quietly.

Speaker 3: Fruit.

Larry: Fruit. Fruit flies. Couldn't talk, marriage. Girls. Nallee which means hyper.

Speaker 2: Hyper?

Larry: Muscle queen, which that one is going in the kitchen. Girls still love this one. Can you see frustration? I mean, size queens and its all about being a boy or girl.

Speaker 2: Right.

Larry: So you see the words fly by. Okay, the furnace room is in here. A mess. My flaming room, that's why I have all the flames going on.

Speaker 2: And this boy is in your work a lot. This little boy.

Larry: Oh it's Dick.

Speaker 2: Him?

Larry: Dick from Dick and Jane.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Larry: So in a series got along with Dick, no Dan.

Speaker 2: I remember Dick and Jane books, it's just funny. I see him, he's an inner work.

Larry: I did a whole series of him. I'll find a catalog downstairs.

Speaker 2: I wonder if it was tongue in cheek. The catalog-

Larry: - Oh man-

Speaker 2: - didn't stand a chance.

Larry: Humor's hard.

Speaker 2: Yes. Did you see Love, Simon?

Larry: Oh good.

Speaker 2: I did too. I did too. Saw it about a year ago.

Larry: That's a keeper.

Speaker 2: I love them.

Larry: Anyway-

Speaker 2: It was across from them, I didn't even see that that was the sight.

Larry: Are you afraid of heights?

Speaker 2: No, I'm not. I'm good.

Larry: I moved some stairs.

Speaker 3: That don't have any end of.

Larry: Yeah, we're gonna think of something. Just watch this. So that's the one that my client wanted. Glass houses, it's in memorial to the Nice.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Larry: A magician. I love magicians. And there's the sketch for that one.

Speaker 2: Yeah, wow.

Larry: And this is cracking walls. This is in bad shape.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Larry: And that's a case of- and then they thought I'll buy this red tape. I used red tape. Well they had given me a mark and this is a sketchbook drawing for a client.

Speaker 2: Yes, I remember this one.

Larry: And they gave me extra for gallery art. That's when I realized how hard it is to draw the [inaudible 02:53:32] and draw them as Jesus. Without it's box.

Speaker 2: And? Oh yeah the red.

Larry: But it worked.

Speaker 2: Yeah it did.

Larry: Really, really strong.

Speaker 2: This your rabbit stick?

Larry: My rabbit stick.

Speaker 2: I love it.

Larry: I like the distance it has when I'm drawing.

Speaker 2: Well how did you look down and see it? Just [crosstalk 02:54:14].

Larry: [inaudible 02:54:16] They keep paying for whole other work.

Speaker 2: Do you go in fits and starts or is it always something brewing or?

Larry: Yeah world peace. Feelings we all have to worry about.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Larry: Back to work. It's too early to have said all the pledge to allegiance.

Speaker 3: Sang? All the boats were open, so where we kind of drew-

Speaker 2: Oh.

Larry: And that's Mace. I dated the class for savings one time. You don't sell this but I pulled out a couple hundred.

Speaker 2: Oh wow. You are crazy prolific.

Larry: There we go hun.

Speaker 2: That's your box of ...

Larry: That's the deconstructed, three dimensional product. An angel. It'd been in sight.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Larry: Call it, come on Mike.

Speaker 2: More I start- I mean it's just, it's just, is this what's inside? Oh okay you drew all over the insides. Let's look here.

Larry: There's the berry.

Speaker 2: I'll leave it.

Larry: A friend of Dorothy's. Dorothy. These can, pocket rocket. Let's see what I have there.

Speaker 2: I'll help pull them.

Larry: It's called the ... boys will be boys, or something like that. The boy Danny.

Speaker 2: Yup. So is Dick one of those things that you saw that just stuck with you, it became?

Larry: I- when I moved my brother back from [inaudible 02:57:01] sister who rode in his truck cab, a U-Haul truck cab for four days. We talked about growing up and being home and I want to do something about, growing up gay. And I came in and draw some children and this will be gay.

Speaker 2: Oh right.

Larry: I mean-

Speaker 2: Right. Just what you need.

Larry: So I was in New York and I rented a studio up there and the front of the paper of the style section had this history of Dick and Jane. And he was standing here and then Jane really had a jump rope in her hand.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Larry: They was holding hands.

Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.

Larry: I'm afraid of Dick doing that.

Speaker 2: That's funny.

Larry: So if it gives me fabric and a story about it, and boy, and glue, it reached out with a paint on it. That one's queen, so he's always in there.

Speaker 2: Yup.

Larry: This is very good, being gay. This is called the last butt store. That's a fan from the old church I went to. And this is yours.

Speaker 2: Oh thank you, very much.

Larry: Well, oh my goodness, this is my Aunt Bine's scroll, but, I'm going to use it, yet.

Speaker 2: Yet. That's right, yeah that's really expensive. Stuff just comes to you and you figure out what to do with it.

Larry: Another fruit one.

Speaker 2: Yup.

Larry: And then I did 69 of these. For contemporary-

Speaker 2: Of course you did, 'cause that's what 69 is-

Larry: -honor made it like them. I didn't make them I designed them. Whether- and this actually a design out of a boy scout manual. And this is what I originally designed, but they didn't like it, they said we don't need anything that specific Larry, so I made this. And was like-

Speaker 2: Right.

Larry: So, it's just called Dick. Fruit. Those are some of the badges.

Speaker 2: More of your badges, yup.

Larry: And feathers I did for it. I have a website, it's just all, you know what's like-

Speaker 2: Oh the badges, huh? I'm surprised that they didn't put those in?

Larry: Well I did sell some.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure.

Larry: Oh yeah, like I thought I would.

Speaker 2: So, how do you decide what's next?

Larry: I don't know.

Speaker 3: You do know, that's not true.

Speaker 2: Do you let it, you let it-

Larry: I know what I want to do, but it's real text anymore, I'm not hired to do the other person.

Speaker 2: Oh you've already-

Larry: We've already got it lined up I think. The guy, I don't know when.

Speaker 2: How do you know when you're ready to put proverbial pen to paper? Like something's been chewing on you. You saw the guy in the hat? Just when it comes out or?

Larry: No, well, let me show you a drawing I've used that's-

Speaker 3: It's Ford.

Larry: Its, we're late for them. Now I'm them.

Speaker 2: I won't keep you much longer.

Larry: Oh Desalle will call back. Jimmy, Jim. I've got company, I'll call you back in an hour. Pocket dial. These I stepped on. Man comes flying over that mall.

Speaker 2: Wow, yeah.

Larry: And have we Oh Damn. Those drawings you want to dig out. It's up here. Yup, there it is.

Speaker 2: Oh those are clean.

Larry: These are called hardware. And I had done this drawing so I wouldn't forget. A friendly one gave me a little church like this on a birdhouse 'cause the holes are kind of open and the doors opened up.

Speaker 3: There it is.

Larry: On top, okay?

Speaker 2: Yup.

Larry: So I had decided that. This is, I didn't do that. And this was white at time of my- I built a curve, and I got a dome I cut in half, and this is all white, white feathers and so it's called, white feather. Okay, floor that is just in one section. And a TV mounted on it's back. A church set on there, so it looked like it was just sitting on a white. You didn't think anything was happening until you looked inside the church and there's a hand masturbating. Oh this Dick is soul crushing, its called Compassionate Conservative 'cause it was jerking off.

Speaker 2: I'm sure you got letters and-

Larry: No, people loved it.

Speaker 2: So who would create something like that? You know it's gonna get a reaction.

Larry: Oh yeah, 'cause I hated George Bush. Compassionate and conservative-

Speaker 2: So it was more of just- so this is more of just your, like your voice?

Larry: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Larry: My voice. This is a show called Tool I think.

Speaker 3: No Hardware.

Speaker 2: Hardware.

Larry: Hardware. It goes as it's own exhibit all the time. People, they'd look at it and walk up to it and they look through the doors and start laughing. And one dual church was quite so nice to me.

Speaker 2: So it would reflect to you. So do people come to you and ask you about? Do they get angry at you, all of it?

Larry: Yes, they thought it was hysterically funny 'cause people who go to art shows are pretty liberal-

Speaker 2: Right, right, right, that's true, that's true, that's true. Well it- yeah But people that aren't protesting outside.

Larry: Well they did. Well they tried to put that in-

Speaker 2: Now have you done things that have been so controversial that galleries have refused them or anything like that?

Larry: Yeah the [inaudible 03:04:26] piece is enough to get me closed at a college gallery this is something. For about three days.

Speaker 2: Oh and there was so much conservation.

Larry: I lost my billing.

Speaker 2: I guess that's success.

Larry: This is a wild time because, it's a weird time because my brother had died on January first. He wanted to die before that because his taxes would be easier he said. He had a funny sense of humor.

Speaker 2: Oh yes he did, that's right.

Larry: And he- I guess it's the weather channel only a moment.

Speaker 2: Your brother taxes-

Larry: So I had come home on the 31st. He actually died on the first. The 30th or 31st because I had to be at school to teach the next week. And I had this show in Mississippi. Here's a bad chicken on the left if you come through to the bedroom. We kind of, we could talk but he was pretty out of it. Because he used to do some theater stuff, tap dancing. So I'm taking you on the road. 'Cause he was in the video, and all those pictures of his. In all those pictures. So, I got home, was only home a day and a half, and he died.

Larry: Came back, loaded the U-Haul, hired a couple students to help me load the U-Haul and drove to Mississippi with Mark. And in there was a walking grave. It's not in that book. You probably read about it. I don't know. And all these drawings around the gallery and where did [inaudible 00:00:31] is here. And I'd taken that golden penis off and put on something else [inaudible 00:00:38] Mississippi, she asked me. The gallery didn't want to get in trouble either. And I took out the birthing baby. But it was a wheel that drove them crazy. They've implied [inaudible 00:00:52].

Tina: Oh. That was too central to the core of ...

Larry: Yeah, of. So the guy who was head of the anti abortion group was going to protest that. And anyway, I got there, we unloaded the truck, someone [inaudible 00:01:18], grave came apart was so heavy and awkward. And they had already built [inaudible 00:01:27] specs. They had sheetrocked it and all right before we first come from insulation. And I was working away. I said I have a headache, can I lay down in your office? She said sure, so I went and laid down. When I woke up I couldn't get up. My back was hurting so bad. And the stress can be amazing, it's oh, we get [inaudible 00:01:56].

Tina: Oh. I see. Yeah, and you weren't letting it out and you were, yeah.

Larry: And good Lord. They take me to the emergency room. So the next two days I laid on the floor of the gallery on a mattress and told these wonderful women down there that I'd taught a lot of them to, what to do, where to hang things, how far apart, so on.

Tina: From the mattress on the floor?

Larry: Because my back was out of control.

Tina: But the show must go on.

Larry: Right. And then I was fine by the third day, fine in that the muscle relaxants and pain pills worked.

Tina: Right.

Larry: And so I had to go walk through that night for the opening. When I left there, I had my car, no, yeah, I had my car. I don't know how it got up there but anyway, it did. And I wanted to go wash it. I pulled in to a car wash, you drive in. And I did bust [inaudible 00:03:14]. The tension finally got to me. It was up. It looked good.

Tina: And then you could, yeah.

Larry: Then the next day I taught a workshop, a two day workshop on how to do installations. And the way you do about making an installation if you're a painter or whatever, they could make models. Showed them all kind of pictures and slides. And talked about the availability of content. And I said tomorrow morning at noon, you work in the morning but at noon I want you to display your model.

Tina: Right, right.

Larry: Too, and explain what you're doing. With 20 women in that group. I'd taught drawing workshops and painting workshops to that group before. So they knew me, most of them. They were crying, talking about their work and how this opened the door. And I said okay, there's obviously something going on here guys. And I said [Cacife 00:04:36], I said [Yeoman 00:04:37] where are you going to get this out there? Because you've got a model and you can show people a slide as they're being taken in, show it to a gallery and tell them this is how you want to do your next show. Three of them got theirs done.

Tina: Oh wow. Three out of 20?

Larry: Uh huh.

Tina: What happened to the rest?

Larry: I have no idea. They were all based [inaudible 00:04:57].

Tina: Right.

Larry: I tell you, the ones who were deadly serious were something.

Tina: So when you teach, do you ever see yourself in the class, like somebody that's in there for the first time?

Larry: You have to think you know more than they do, even though some days we're arctic.

Tina: Right.

Larry: Now my goal as a teacher was to give them permission to do anything they want. If you give, and I used to tell them all the time, I will give you permission to go as wild and crazy as you want to go. Just take it. You can't just say you gave it to me and I just did this and it's all censored. I gave you permission to think and do anything.

Tina: Then you have a responsibility, then you must then do it.

Larry: Yeah. I said [inaudible 00:05:55] and they knew the difference when people were doing their presentations.

Tina: Whether they were all out. So what would you say if I was a person reading this book and I have this part, this drive that I want to create or I've got something to say and I don't, I'm not an artist.

Larry: Well, if you're a writer you are.

Tina: Right, but I'm just saying, anybody reading this book that feels like they might have this little voice or want to but they've never picked up clay or wood or pen or paint or whatever, what kinds of things would you say to them? Try, do, go?

Larry: Start. Show up and start. Sketch it out and if you don't like yours find someone who can draw better than you and get them to do it for you. I don't weld but I have branding irons that I have a student make for [crosstalk 00:06:54].

Tina: To do the, yeah.

Larry: If you need something done ...

Tina: Go figure it out.

Larry: Yeah. That's part of the creative process, is pulling other people in sometimes like that.

Tina: Yeah. Who shall remain nameless.

Larry: [inaudible 00:07:12]. Anyway, they, yeah, permission is so important. God, a student has taken, I've had some students do some fabulous art.

Tina: No, I like that because most people, because you're right, there is the first grant of permission or prompt, go. But then you've got to go.

Larry: Yeah, like that girl smoking cigars [inaudible 00:07:41]. The assignment was childhood memory. Well, everyone had a childhood. I used to give what I call universal themes. They had to do something about death called a death slide. Could be the death of their car dying or their dog. It could be something more so, like it's a drawing of reaching up on all these black clothes from the waist down. And she's reaching up on the table because there are cookies. To her death was cookies and parties.

Tina: That's funny. Well, that's good. It's honest.

Larry: Yeah. And a girl in the childhood memory thing did her and her friend playing restaurant and using the toilet as their table and the girls are sitting on the floor by the toilet with wine glasses. It's hysterical.

Tina: I like that because it's honest.

Larry: It is but it's funny too.

Tina: Yeah, yeah.

Larry: So you never know.

Tina: Yeah. I wonder what I'll do with my washers. Well, that's most of the ground I wanted to cover.

Larry: A lot.

Tina: It is a lot.

Larry: Motormouth Larry.

Tina: No, but that's good, that's what I want. And when Angela comes back, the photographer, I'm hoping she gets this stuff. Not the, you know, not the, so I want her to see you and you're just walking around talking.

Larry: I cleaned up a little bit. [crosstalk 00:09:20].

Tina: Don't clean up. I never saw the baby shoe.

Larry: Oh that was hanging behind the sofa. We took it down to hang up the nooses, the necktie. That's called the Golden Triangle. It's really about note taking. You've seen those Da Vinci's where he skips around the page and draws a hand up here.

Tina: Yes.

Larry: A face over here. The shoe was one of my baby shoes. I found those.

Tina: Your baby shoe? That's funny.

Larry: Some of us. I found a box of baby shoes in mother's, under mother's bed when she died.

Tina: Oh wow. Those are like, that I saw somewhere.

Larry: You saw the ruby slippers. He sold a drawing [crosstalk 00:10:14].

Tina: I thought you had the, I saw that somewhere where the boots were in them. What [crosstalk 00:10:18] see that?

Larry: It sold almost immediately. Because I'd written underneath there. My sister's ruby slippers fit better if I had my boots on. We were kind of sickness kids to some of my stuff. I like it.

Tina: Yeah. Well because that's how it happened with you too though. It was just the sickness.

Larry: They were laying around, oh that's kind of interesting. Let's fit in there. Because some friends of mine gave me those. In California, they came here.

Tina: But then it speaks volumes.

Larry: And they went to the junk store and they found those ruby slippers. They thought that was so funny. I thought hmm, that is funny but [inaudible 00:11:02].

Tina: That are made from the [inaudible 00:11:04] yeah. Yeah.

Larry: Because this is like a [inaudible 00:11:10] square.

Tina: Oh yeah, I see the stain.

Larry: I [crosstalk 00:11:19] you have to do some systems like that. When I was a kid I couldn't draw horses for shit. It always bugged me. All the girls drew horses. That's the most popular things for girls to draw.

Tina: A horse?

Larry: Uh huh.

Tina: That's interesting.

Larry: Fifth, fourth, fifth graders, yeah. So I'm going to draw a horse.

Tina: Fourth, fifth. Well that makes sense because that's when they've seen all the movies with girls getting carried away on horses.

Larry: Now they have all the fun of carousels. I mean, not carousels but [crosstalk 00:12:00].

Tina: Carriages.

Larry: Rainbow hair and all that.

Tina: Yeah that's true. All right, well I will let you get back to your phone calls and your life. What happens now, this is in the email so you don't have to remember but I'll go back. I have nine more to do.

Larry: That's good.

Tina: July 2nd and 3rd I'm going to Tucson and San Francisco and getting those and then the rest of them are on the east coast. But my goal is to have all the interviews done by the end of the year. Then I'll start, I don't know, I might start writing before but get all the interviews done and then the photography done. Angela comes and shoots you and stuff and then start putting it together. When I'm done with your section I'll send it to you.

Larry: Okay. I'll be gone all next week.

Tina: Yeah, it'll be awhile. It'll be awhile. I mean, it doesn't matter because we have six months now to get your picture taken. And I know where you live now.

Larry: It's easy.

Tina: Yeah, we'll find you. Let me figure out when you, how'd you get the lined paper that big?

Larry: I made it.

Tina: Love it.

Larry: This is coffee. That's hand art. Love tablet paper. That's what I had as a kid that I drew on. So yeah. So I can make it look like what I want.

Tina: Well then, [inaudible 00:13:24] part of it [inaudible 00:13:26] coffee at it one day and you're like that's what I want.

Larry: [inaudible 00:13:32] my drawing, because that one would be, that one, probably the blue one.

Tina: Was that at the gallery? Yeah.

Larry: Well, yeah. I think yes.

Tina: A couple of these I recognize. [inaudible 00:13:50] because I've seen it. What did happen to your piece that was the blood and the shovel?

Larry: It's in storage. [inaudible 00:14:01].

Tina: When I saw that I was like that's stopping. Are we going back up here? All right. I saw that I was like whoa. It seemed heavy.

Larry: All the way up from [inaudible 00:14:20]. How about that?

Tina: So when you do all these iterations of different things in your art a lot, is it because you haven't quite thought something out or do you just [crosstalk 00:14:45].

Larry: No. [crosstalk 00:14:46] nicknames I gave people to have.

Tina: Right.

Larry: And so I drew the real thing. Also put a big [inaudible 00:15:00].

Tina: Oh yeah. Yeah. [inaudible 00:15:08] feel the pansies yet. Do you want me to leave this with you or do you have it printed? Do you want me to talk to [crosstalk 00:15:13].

Larry: I have it printed.

Tina: Okay. I'll [inaudible 00:15:15] the next six months.

Larry: Oh okay. Good.

Tina: I'm not that worried about it though. If I think of anything as I'm [muscling 00:15:25] I might follow up but I won't harass you. Well, I mean ...

Larry: I'm retired.

Tina: I know but still. No, but just as I'm going through if I get stuck on a concept or I don't remember exactly, but you'll get to see it before. Which more people are like why would you show them, they're going to want to change everything.

Larry: [crosstalk 00:15:47] it can't be that long.

Tina: I don't know. I don't know, until it's done. I'm not going to, depending on how, you know, people may have different things to say and it takes the space. I don't want to constrain and then an editor will probably say differently. But I'm not going to constrain it. You said a lot. And as I told you, I think I want you to be the last one. Because I think you're the most seasoned. I'll say well, you have a little bit of a different story. I don't know if you looked through any of the links of the other people but I think they're much earlier in the exploration than you are.

Larry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). No. I think they would give me a lecture. That's Gab. And this girl came out, good God she was smoking. And she says I'm honored to have you in the teaching [inaudible 00:16:55] but she said you tell them anything don't you? I say it's a piece of paper on the wall, yeah. Most of the time, people are [inaudible 00:17:10] like they're working at a museum. If I'm not being honest with myself and trying to figure out who the hell I am it's not good to anybody.

Tina: Right. Right.

Larry: There's a chance that might connect in some way, shape or form. I call it loading. You put something in there, if you don't load it, why should anyone else care? If you don't care why should anyone?

Tina: Right. And I think you're right. I think that comes through.

Larry: Oh good. Because even if they don't get it, like I think this one behind the sofa is pretty easy to get. But [inaudible 00:17:59] there. Yeah. I mean, the Venus model beauty contest is one of the best things that everyone could like, no one's ever asked me what it's about.

Tina: What it's about, right. There's just something, and that's how I found all 10 of you. Is I just looked through and people would say what are you looking for? I'm like I don't know. It's interesting. There was one gallery in Nashville. They had 17 artists on their artist roster and I picked this one woman and this one guy. I don't know anything about any of them. I just was like she has something and he has something that I like. And they actually are the two, knew each other and had done a show together. Because I wrote her and she said are you looking at anybody else? I said oh, Scott Hill. And then she told me this long story about how they were intertwined. Weird.

Tina: But anyway. Like I said, if I get stuck or I want to requote you or make sure I'm getting something right I may call you but other than that I'll probably just write it and then send it to you, get you [inaudible 00:19:12]. Okay. And then do you have publicists or anything that need to see it? Because I worry about the commercialization of it. Yeah, but it's nice. I like it. I grew up in Florida so. Oh, I did have something to tell you, I wanted to show you. I was at church with my mom and that [inaudible 00:19:45] because these things are funny. I walk in and it was Christmas and I'll just describe it if I can't find it but it's funnier if you just see it.

Tina: There's a picture of Jesus with his outstretched arms and he's, the heart was through the cloth, you could see it. And he was sitting on a table and underneath someone had printed out a sign from the computer that just said lost and found. I'll find it and send it to you. But I was like, I just thought it was so funny. I took a picture of it. My mom's like why are you taking a picture of that? I was like mom, can you not see the humor in that, that Jesus, and then underneath him there was a bin of sweaters and whatever. I can't find it. I'll find it and send it to you though just because it's funny to see. Like it's just in front of the office of the whatever was lost and found.

Tina: I was going to use it as my Christmas card but my mom [inaudible 00:20:49]. Well, I mean, isn't that the season? Isn't it the whole reason for it? I'll let you go. I can't find it.

Larry: [inaudible 00:21:01]. Oh it is huge.

Tina: Eight by five. Somebody said [inaudible 00:21:16]. Because it's in the damn paint. Anyway, you were saying [inaudible 00:21:25].

Larry: Dirk, Chrissy, Weirdo. [inaudible 00:21:30] Steve was his name. And he carried in his wallet this picture of these camels having sex. He says a funny thing. So I made a copy of it, went out and bought some Christmas cards, little [inaudible 00:21:47].

Tina: You did not.

Larry: [inaudible 00:21:51] shepherd's watching. That was our Christmas card.

Tina: Did you send him one?

Larry: Yeah.

Tina: That is hilarious. That is the kind of thing I find [crosstalk 00:22:06].

Larry: Oh yeah. It is funny.

Tina: Because it happens.

Larry: [inaudible 00:22:10]. Jerks were there. Jesus [inaudible 00:22:20] and they had a bunch of posters laying on the ground but I just walked past them. This guy said you walked on Jesus. I said no, I walked on a piece of paper glued to cardboard.

Tina: What'd he say to you?

Larry: Oh, he didn't get it.

Tina: Well. well, people mail them, [inaudible 00:22:43] it's better than mailing them. All right, this was wonderful.

Larry: Thank you.

Tina: Oh thank you. I will, I'll send you stuff soon.

Larry: Okay.

Tina: Looks like we might get a storm. I love it. I love storms. I'll send you a picture of Jesus.

Speaker 3: Down to the bone. Go ahead into your bed, I whisper against Fern's ear and push her toward the stairs. Fern runs up to the second floor and disappears. Breath comes in and out of my nose in short gasps as I flatten myself against the stairway wall and creep closer to the open parlor door. In the kitchen, Zuma turns on the electric mixer. I can't hear the voices for a minute, but then I do. A very unfortunate situation but it does happen. Miss Tan is saying it's never my wish to take the children away once we've found good homes for them, but my husband, the papers, we were promised that the girls would be ours to keep. Mrs. Savier's voice wavers and cracks. A teacup rattles against a saucer.

Speaker 3: It seems like forever before Miss Tan answers. As well they should be. She sounds like she feels sorry for our troubles. But adoptions are not final for one year. Birth families can be so difficult. The grandmother of these children petitioned to gain custody of them. I gasped, then hear the soft sound of it and soft hand over my mouth. We don't even have a grandmother, htot that I know of anyhow. Briney's folks are dead and Queenie hasn't seen her people since she ran off with Briney.

Lans Anders: Hey Tina, Lans Anders of [inaudible 00:25:59]. I wanted to get the rest of your calls/meetings set up when you get a chance today. 678-231-1141. Thanks.

Speaker 3: This [inaudible 00:26:14] Mrs. Savier lets out a sob that sounds like it'll break her in two. She sniffles and coughs and finally forces out some words. We, we can't let the his, Darren will be home for lunch. Please, please wait. He'll know what, what to do. Oh my, I'm afraid I've upset you more than is necessary. Miss Tan sounds sticky sweet, but I can picture her face. She's smiling the same mean smile she had when Mrs. Pulnick was holding me down on my knees. Miss Tan likes the way people look when they are afraid. I wasn't planning to take the children from you today. You can fight this foolishness, of course. You should, in fact. The grandmother has no real means of providing for the girls. They would have a terrible life. May and little Beth are depending on you to protect them. But you must realize that legal work can be costly.

Speaker 3: Costly? [inaudible 00:27:30] but shouldn't be a difficulty, now should it? Not when the fate of two innocent children is at stake? Two children for whom you've come to dearly love? Yes, $3000 perhaps a bit more. That should go a good distance toward resolving these legal issues. $3000? Perhaps more. What are you saying? Another pause and then nothing matters more than your family, don't you agree? I can hear that horrible smile in Miss Tan's voice. I want to run in there and tell the truth. I want to point at her and yell liar, we don't even have a grandma. And I had three sisters not two. And a baby brother. His name was Abie and not Robby. And you took him away, just like you took my sisters.

Speaker 3: I want to tell all of it. I can taste the words on my tongue. But I can't say them. If I do, I know what will happen. Miss Tan will take us back to the children's home. She'll give Fern to someone else.

Speaker 5: Welcome to ADT. Always there. I'm putting this call through now. All calls may be recorded.

Marcus: Hello, this is Marcus with ADT. How can I help you today?

Tina: Hey Marcus, this is Tina at [inaudible 00:29:09]. I'm at 134 Maxwell thank you.

Marcus: Just fine thank you. How can I help you?

Tina: My neighbor got a call from ADT but I didn't.

Marcus: All right, let me take a look here. Give me just a moment.

Tina: And the weirdest thing, I didn't set my alarm when I left.

Marcus: That's odd. We did receive an alarm signal that came from your exit door, entry door that is. And we called, let's see what number did we call first here? We called the number that we are talking on right now and it didn't answer or no answering machine or anything. And so we called the next number on file.

Tina: Okay. I gotta figure this out because I've had ADT come out three times now to turn down sensors and do all this stuff. I'll be at home and my alarm will all of a sudden start going eeee and when I walk over to the keypad it says system arming. And I didn't touch it. So I don't even use my alarm because it's still unpredictable. This is another example of it where, and they've even replaced the numbers pad. But since I've moved in and started it has not worked right. So I don't even use it because I never know when it's going to go off.

Marcus: I'm sorry to hear that. Let me a take a look here. Looks like they have been out there ...

Tina: Three times.

Marcus: Many times. [inaudible 00:30:44] came out in January. They came out also a second time. Hold on for just a moment. This came from the same location above that door, but you said the keypad was not even armed.

Tina: No, I didn't arm the alarm this morning. So how is it automatically arming itself or what the heck is happening with it? Because like I said, it hasn't worked right since I moved it so I just don't use it. And that's scaring me because I live alone.

Marcus: I understand. Well, it looks like they did replace the entire keypad in March.

Tina: I know.

Marcus: And they replaced the door sensor also. Do you have a key fob?

Tina: A key fob?

Marcus: A remote key fob.

Tina: No, but I have combination look on my door, not a, you know you have to punch in a code, not a key.

Marcus: So with your alarm system you don't have a remote or anything like that?

Tina: No.

Marcus: Okay, and there's no one else in the home.

Tina: No.

Marcus: That's very strange because they replaced the entire keypad and the system sent us an alarm signal today.

Tina: I have three keypads and they replaced the one I do use but I just [crosstalk 00:32:18].

Marcus: Because it sounds like to me that it must be one of the other ones. Are they all the same model? Do they all look alike?

Tina: No. The new one is different than the other two. And they kept [crosstalk 00:32:34] when I was using it, they kept telling me oh it's the glass, the dog barking is setting off the glass break. And so I had them come out and the guy moved the glass break sensor and turned it on the lowest sensitivity. But now, I don't know what to do.

Marcus: Well it looks like to me since you have three keypads, and that would explain a lot, they were working on the one that does not have the problem. Because the same error that came across came across in March and that's why we [inaudible 00:33:07] there from door one, your entry door. We replaced the keypad and we replaced the sensor but apparently the keypad they replaced is not the one that has the trouble. It may be one of the other two.

Tina: Okay, so how can I schedule to have the other two replaced? Because I want to be able to use my alarm. Is that something, is that would help? Say that again, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7: Call ended.

Marcus: Schedule for you.

Tina: Okay. All right. Sorry my Bluetooth [inaudible 00:33:51].

Tina: Okay, thank you.

Tina: I believe so yeah. Okay. Yeah, thank you very much because I keep paying for the monthly thing but then I don't use it and then I just get busy and I'm just used to not using it. Then I get these calls and then I get notes from the city saying the police can't come out anymore, you're going to get charge. I'm like okay, I'm turning it off.

Marcus: I do understand. [inaudible 00:37:18]. We did [inaudible 00:37:18].

Tina: I think it's like putty or trust ...

Marcus: It's four numbers.

Tina: Oh, 1212.

Marcus: That [inaudible 00:37:42].

Tina: Okay. Will do, okay, thank you very much. So tomorrow between 8:00 and 12:00 you said?

Marcus: Yeah, [inaudible 00:38:09].

Tina: Okay, yes that's my only number. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. All right. Bye.

Tina: I am. I'm on my way, or I'm almost to Chik-Fil-A. Do you want anything? Are you sure? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Chik-Fil-A sandwich, no pickles. Meal? Okay, and what do you want to drink? Diet Coke? Okay. Drink? Diet frosted lemonade? Okay. All right. Love you. Judging for how long I was there. I got there at 10:00. It felt like 10 minutes. I'll see you in a minute, at the caterers. Bye. Love you too, bye.

Speaker 3: And we won't be together anymore. Mrs. Savier sniffles and coughs again. Of course, I agree but, she breaks down and sobs again, apologizing for it all the while. A chair creaks and groans and heavy uneven footsteps cross the floor. Talk with your husband, express your sincere feelings on the matter. Tell him how much you need the children and how much they need you. I won't bother with seeing the girls today. I'm sure they're doing quite well under your care, thriving even. Her footsteps moved closer to the doors at either end of the room. I push off the wall and run up the stairs. The last thing I hear is Miss Tan's voice echoing through the house. No need getting up. I can show myself out. I'll expect to be hearing from you by tomorrow. Time is of the essence.

Speaker 3: Upstairs I hurry to Fern's room. I don't even get her out from under the bed. I just slip under there with her. We lay face to face the way we always did on the Arcadia. It's all right, I whisper. I won't let her take us back, I promise. No matter what. I hear Mrs. Savier pass by in the hallway. Her sobbing echos out the wood walls and the high ceiling with the gold edges. The door closes at the end of the hall and I hear her take to her bed and cry and cry and cry, just like she used to when I first came here. [Teema 00:42:49] comes up and knocks on the door, but it's locked and Mrs. Savier won't let anyone in. She's still in the bed when Mr. Savier comes home for lunch. By then I've got Fern cleaned up and I've read her a book and she's sound asleep with her thumb in her mouth and the teddy bear she calls Gabby, like it's our baby brother.

Speaker 3: I listen while Mr. Savier unlocks their bedroom. After he goes inside, I tiptoe out where I can listen better. I don't even need to get very close to hear how mad Mr. Savier is, after his missus tells him what happened. This is blackmail, he shouts. It's nothing but outright blackmail. We can't let her take the girls Darren, Mrs. Savier pleads. We can't. I will not be blackmailed by this woman. We paid the adoption fees, which by the way were exorbitant, particularly the second time around. Darren, please. Victoria, if we let this get started there will be no stopping it. Something metal topples over and clatters across the floor. Where does it end then? Tell me that.

Speaker 3: I don't know. But we have to do something. Oh I'll do something all right. That woman doesn't know who she's dealing with. The door handle rattles and I hurry to my room. Darren please, please listen to me, Mrs. Savier begs. We'll go to mama's home in Augusta. Bell Grove has more than enough space anda the place is too much for her now that daddy is gone. The girls will have aunts and uncles and all of my friends there. We'll take Hoyt and Zuma and Hootsie. We can stay as long as need be. Permanently even. Mama is lonely and Bell Grove House needs a family. It's a wonderful place to grow up. Now Victoria, this is our home. I've finally gotten my little studio building underway down by the lake. The Lakamie's aren't the fastest workers but they have the piers and the flooring in place and are making progress on framing up the walls.

Speaker 3: We can't let Georgia Tan put us out of our home. My family home for heaven's sake. Bell Grove has acres and acres along the Savannah River. You can build another studio, a bigger one. Any kind you want. Mrs. Savier talks so fast I can hardly make out the words. Please Darren, I can't live here knowing that woman could come knocking on our door at any moment to talk our children. Mr. Savier doesn't answer. I close my eyes and dig my fingernails into my fuzzy pink wallpaper, waiting, hoping. Let's not do anything rash, Mr. Savier says finally. I have a meeting to go to in the city tonight. I'll pay a visit to Miss Tan and settle this matter face to face once and for all.

Speaker 3: We'll see how bold she is in her demands then. Mrs. Savier doesn't argue anymore. I hear her crying softly and the bed creaking and him comforting her. Come now darling, no more tears. It'll be taken care of. And if you'd like to take the girls to visit in Augusta, we can arrange that as well. I stand there with my mind rushing through 100 thoughts and then it stops and settles on one. I know what I have to do. There's no more time to waste. I hurry to my dresser to get what I need and then run downstairs. In the kitchen, Zuma has lunch ready but she's over in the corner with her head in the laundry chute so she can listen to what's happening with the Savier's. Hoostie's probably halfway up the chute telling everything she hears. On the chopping block, there's a little picnic basket ready to go down to the McCambey's construction camp.

Speaker 3: Zuma would make Hoostie take it down there. Hoostie hates that. And so does Zuma. Zuma says the McCambey's are nothing but white trash and they'll steal Mr. Savier blind if he turns his back. The only good thing is Zuma and Hoostie hate us less now because they're busy hating the McCambey boys and their daddy. I grab the basket and run out the door yelling I'll take this to the camp. I've got a movie [inaudible 00:47:42] to the boy down there anyhow. I'm gone before Zuma can argue that I'll be late for lunch. I bolt out the back, jump off the veranda and cross the yard as fast as my legs will take me. All the while looking over my shoulder to see if Hoostie's following me. It's a relief that she doesn't.

Speaker 3: Down by the lake Mr. McCambey is more than ready to settle under a shade tree when I show up with the basket. Near as I can figure, he's always willing to stop working. The only reason he's got his sweat worked up today is because his two biggest boys went to the neighbor's place to help cut a lightening fell tree off their barn and fix the roof. They won't be back for a day or two, until that job's done. The only help ...

Speaker 8: Hi, thanks for choosing Chik-Fil-A. My name is [inaudible 00:48:34], how may I serve you?

Tina: Hey. May I have a Chik-Fil-A sandwich with no pickles and a Diet Coke.

Speaker 8: Can I get you anything else today ma'am?

Tina: Yes. I would like a diet frosted lemonade.

Speaker 8: You said a diet frosted lemonade?

Tina: Yes ma'am. Small.

Speaker 8: Small.

Tina: With three count chicken strips.

Speaker 8: All right.

Tina: And a small [crosstalk 00:48:57].

Speaker 8: Just the strips?

Tina: Yeah, just the strips. And a small super food side.

Speaker 8: [inaudible 00:49:02] what else can I get for you today?

Tina: 12 nuggets.

Speaker 8: Do you need sauce with that today?

Tina: No ma'am. Meal.

Speaker 8: You said the meal? All right. The 12 count meal. What's your beverage?

Tina: He said Gatorade, or Powerade but I don't see it so.

Speaker 8: I'm sorry, what ma'am?

Tina: I guess a Sprite.

Speaker 8: A Sprite, would that be all?

Tina: Yep.

Speaker 8: All right. No dipping sauce?

Tina: No ma'am.

Speaker 8: All right. I've got the Chik-Fil-A sandwich with no pickles, a Diet Coke, a frosted small lemonade, three count strips with a super food and a 12 count meal with Sprite.

Tina: That'll do it.

Speaker 8: All right ma'am. The total's going to be $23.13 at the window today, okay?

Tina: Yeah, and you know, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. Can you also add a small fry to that?

Speaker 8: Small fry? $24.74 will be your total at the window today, okay ma'am?

Tina: Thank you. Sorry. Thank you.

Speaker 8: My pleasure.

Speaker 3: Mr. McCambey [inaudible 00:50:05] right now is the youngest boy. Arnie is his name, but Mr. McCambey just calls him boy. I nod at Arnie and he follows me up the path to a willow tree where we sat and talked before. I slip under the branches and give Arnie a sandwich and apple and two sugar cookies I squirreled away in my pocket. Arnie's a scrawny little thing so usually when I come down here I bring him food he doesn't have to share with the rest of the McCambeys. I figure he needs it. He's a year older than me, but not even as tall as I am yet. Brought you something else today. I give him a handbill from a movie theater. He holds the picture of a cowboy on a tall yellow horse and whistles long and low. It sure is pretty. Tell me how the [inaudible 00:50:57] went. Was there lots of shooting?

Speaker 3: He sits down and I sit down with him. I want to share all about the movie Mrs. Savier took us to, and the theater with its big red velvet seats and tall towers that look like they should've been on a king's castle. But there isn't time to talk about those things, not today. Not with what's happened. I have to get Arnie to say yes to what I asked him yesterday. The moon will be full tonight, and on the water it'll be almost bright as high noon. With Arnie's brothers gone there won't be a better time. I can't let Mrs. Savier drag us off to Augusta. I can't let Miss Tan make us go back to the home. And besides that, Fern's starting to think of Mrs. Savier as her mama. Little by little her mind's letting loose of our real mama.

Speaker 3: At bedtime, I sneak over to Fern's room and tell her about Queenie and Briney but it's not working anymore. Fern's forgetting the river and Kingdom Arcadia. She's forgetting who we are. It's time for us to go. So what we talked about yesterday, you're going to take us right? I ask Arnie. Tonight, for the moon of the [inaudible 00:52:22].

Speaker 9: Hi, how are you?

Tina: Hi, fine thanks.

Speaker 9: I have a Chik-Fil-A sandwich, no pickle, medium Diet Coke, [inaudible 00:52:32] Sprite and small fry. Okay, it's $24.74.

Tina: You were outside the other day, I remember.

Speaker 9: Yeah.

Tina: I liked your nail polish.

Speaker 9: Thank you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Here you go ma'am.

Tina: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 3: You don't live all your life on the river without knowing how the moon travels. The river and its critters choose their moods according to the moon. Arnie jerks away like I slapped him and pinches his brown eyes closed. [inaudible 00:53:38] hair falls across his forehead and parks over his long, boney nose. He shakes his head in a nervous way. Maybe he never meant to help us at all. Maybe it was just a big talk, [inaudible 00:53:51] boat and he knows how to get through the [inaudible 00:53:54] Lake [inaudible 00:53:56] all the way to the big river. But I told him the truth about [inaudible 00:54:01], the whole story. I even gave him our real names. I thought he understood why we needed his help.

Speaker 3: He rests his elbows on his dirty overalls where his knees poked through. I'd sure enough miss you if you was gone. Y'all have been the only thing good about this place so far. You can come with us. Old Zeke fetched up lots of boys. He'd take you on I bet. I'm sure he would. You'd never have to see this place again. You could be free, just like we're going to be. Arnie's daddy drinks every night and works his boys like sawmill mules and beats on them all the time, especially Arnie. Hootsie saw Arnie get whooped upside the head with a hammer handle, just for bringing his daddy the wrong pack of nails. Any either way, the pearls are yours, just like I promised.

Speaker 3: I dig in my pocket and pull them out and hold them in my hand where Arnie can see. I feel bad about the pearls. Mrs. Savier gave them to me the night after she took Fern to get fitted for the special shoes. She thought it was my birthday, on account of that's what the papers from the Tennessee Children's Home Society said. The Saviers figured I'd forgot all about it being my special day and they surprised me with a party at supper. I was surprised all right, my birthday was five and a half months ago and I'm already a whole year older than they think I am. But my name isn't May Weathers either so a birthday in the fall didn't matter too much to me.

Speaker 3: The pearls are the prettiest things that have ever been mine, but I'd give them up for Queenie and Briney [inaudible 00:55:48]. I'd hand them over quick as a wink. Besides, Arnie needs the price they'll fetch more than I do. Half the time they've got whiskey but no food in their camp. Arnie touches the pearls, then pulls his hand away and picks at a scab on his knuckle. I couldn't leave my family, my brothers and such. Think on it real hard, about staying on the river with us. I mean, the truth is Arnie's brothers are practically grown and they're just about as bad as Arnie's daddy. Once they get tired of working like dogs [inaudible 00:56:29]. Arnie's [inaudible 00:56:31] or get beaten until [inaudible 00:56:33].

Speaker 3: They'll be so happy you brought Fern and me back they'll find you a really good place. If Z is not there at that island anymore you can stay with us on The Arcadia until we come across [inaudible 00:56:48]. A little worried sliver pokes under [inaudible 00:56:52] of being sure Briney and Queenie know they're not [inaudible 00:56:57] except that I just know. They'd wait there forever if they had to. Even though the nights are getting cooler and the leaves are falling, and it's time to [inaudible 00:57:10] to Warner Country. What I'm afraid won't go easy is getting Briney and Queenie to cast off once Fern and me are back on The Arcadia. [inaudible 00:57:22] me and Fern are left, the community is gone and [inaudible 00:57:26] are far away. Do they know?

Speaker 3: I can't think about it too hard because it hurts. Don't borrow trouble from around the bend, Briney always said. Right now I just have to concentrate on getting down the [inaudible 00:57:43] to the big river. From there, we'll stay close to the shore and watch out for the wakes off the boats and the barges and keep an eye on the [inaudible 00:57:52] piles and strainer trees and such. Many is the night here at the Savier's house I've climbed away [inaudible 00:57:58] and looked out. I can't see the river from there but I can feel it. I'm sure I hear the foghorns and the whistles far off distant. At the edge of the sky I can see the Memphis lights. From what Arnie has told me, I figure the [inaudible 00:58:16] that drains off this lake must hit the Old Man River some place between the Chickasaw bluffs and the bars of water from that island.

Speaker 3: Arnie's not exactly sure, but I can't be wrong by much. Arnie nods and it's a relief. All right, I'll take ya but it's got to be tonight. No way [inaudible 00:58:38] and my brothers will get back. Good, [inaudible 00:58:42] tree tops. I'll meet you at the boat. Make sure your daddy gets into his whiskey early this evening. Let him eat real good too. That'll make him sleepy. I'll [inaudible 00:58:55] for supper. That won't be hard. All I have to do is tell our new mommy the boy here in the camp is hungry and didn't have enough. She'll make [inaudible 00:59:07] extra. Mrs. Savier has a heart that's soft as a dandelion puff. It's just as fragile too.

Tina: Careful with that. That's the [inaudible 01:00:40]. Okay.

Speaker 10: You [inaudible 01:00:46].

Tina: She's knocking that box over just because it bothers me. [inaudible 01:00:53]. They gave me a Sprite. I don't know. [inaudible 01:01:11] to have Sprite. It's his work.

Speaker 10: Oh really? You wrote it?

Tina: No.

Will: Did you get your fries out?

Speaker 10: No.

Tina: I may have gotten extra fries because I wanted to eat some. May have. That might have happened.

Speaker 10: Thank you. Very much.

Will: Thank you.

Speaker 10: Very much. Let's hear it.

Tina: I want to hear from you guys first.

Speaker 10: So we just had a very long talk and went over all my notes, all the things I read. Will had a tough day. He started out like a PGA professional.

Tina: Yep.

Speaker 10: He was, what did you have three birdies? Three birdies on the front nine. Going into, had a couple of bogies, double. Goes into number 10, he's one over going into number 10. And then he had an errant shot and kind of spiraled from there.

Tina: Stay. Stay. How far off was he from the winner?

Will: Nine. I was right in the middle of the pack.

Speaker 10: Was the guy who shot 73 the winner? Who was second place?

Will: There's two people that shot 10 and six.

Speaker 10: Six off second one. He was playing like a freaking pro for a long part of it. Then we talked about the mental part and the spiraling and how one affects the other, deep breaths to get yourself back into taking your time to hit your blah, blah, blah. A couple of course management errors, went for a couple shots.

Tina: Oh man. I'm sorry.

Speaker 10: Went for a couple things they should've laid off, stuff like that. I think we agreed on all of them pretty much.

Tina: She's staying there because it's raining, because of the thunder. She would normally [crosstalk 01:03:32].

Speaker 10: Yes.

Tina: [inaudible 01:03:35]. Well okay.

Speaker 10: I'm glad. You're going to miss the rain in the summer.

Tina: No I'm not. We're okay.

Speaker 10: So anyway. What do you think Will? You gonna get it tomorrow?

Will: Yeah.

Speaker 10: I mean, he's hitting the ball. [inaudible 01:04:04] these guys are hitting the ball, like right here where that chair is. And then Will hits and it's like two blocks down the road. It's literally a football field past, three yards past.

Tina: Distinctively different.

Speaker 10: [crosstalk 01:04:17]. A pair of [inaudible 01:04:20]. Three birdies on the front, I forgot about that.

Will: Yeah, it was easy.

Tina: Was it just one shot that you thought you should've had and it just threw you off?

Will: One thing, it all got started when I started looking for my ball, because I hit the car path on the 10th hole and it went, I couldn't find it for like five minutes then I found. Then I was in the one, maybe a span of three yards on the whole hole where there was hazard and I was in the hazard.

Speaker 10: Literally. It's like this much room in the [inaudible 01:05:02].

Will: So I kind of bummed. So I bogied that one. I was like whatever. Then I moved to the next hole and then I tried to do something with my driver and I hooked it, doubled that one.

Tina: So admittedly you tried something.

Will: Yeah. And the next hole, I had a driver next to the green, chunked it into the bunker, played it into the hazard, dropped, chipped up, went and put [crosstalk 01:05:39].

Tina: So that was the real test?

Will: Yeah.

Tina: Of mental strength.

Will: Yeah. And I went par par. Then I hit the drive of the day, then I chunked that shot.

Tina: So it was a good day at school?

Will: Yeah.

Speaker 10: That's the perfect thing to say right there. Because we've talked about every hole I think just about and I think we figured out a plan. Would you agree or not?

Will: Yeah.

Tina: And the plan is? I mean if you don't want to tell me, if it's secret boys stuff [crosstalk 01:06:23].

Speaker 10: No. I'd like to hear him play it back.

Tina: Quiz time. Pop quiz.

Will: Just because you know I forget. Do one shot at a time and don't snowball, that's the term he uses. And get a glove that doesn't slip out of my hand too.

Tina: Is that why the glove was [crosstalk 01:06:49].

Speaker 10: What did we talk about, approach shots?

Will: Oh. Get into the spot I want to be at to approach at the hole.

Speaker 10: Because approach shots are incredible so he was [crosstalk 01:07:10].

Tina: That's the drive right?

Speaker 10: That's the shot into the green.

Tina: Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 10: So when he's on the fairway he's better than anybody out there I've seen. On approach shots he hits it right next to the pin, 10 years, 15, whatever. But his distances are really good. But if he tries to go for it in a par five and two and he misses he's on this rough and the grass is really deep so it's hard to get the ball close. Whereas if he lays up and he stays on [crosstalk 01:07:39]. Right. And all this other stuff that your ball could go in if you go for it, it's just noise in your mind that you don't want to have it. Just clear get the ball from here into the fairway where you want it, even if you have to give up a stroke and then hit your shot up and down.

Speaker 10: And that's how he had his first birdie was by doing that exact thing. And then after that, because see the thing is, the other kids don't have to think about it so they can't hit it as far as him. So they don't get the chance to go for it in two.

Tina: They don't have the ...

Speaker 10: Yeah, so they don't even think about it. They just have their [crosstalk 01:08:10]. He's got a decision but they say that about a lot of long players. You've got a decision a lot of other people don't have. And that could hurt you. That could help you when you get an eagle but unless you've got a big huge green, eagles are probably are your five iron out but in the rough it's a tough.

Tina: And the lesson isn't don't go for it.

Speaker 10: The lesson is go for it [crosstalk 01:08:39]. Yeah the lesson is go for it when it's gettable. So if you're on the fairway and you're on the rough and you have a good lie, there's not a tree on your left or you're not in the bind straw or it's something that he ran into today, you don't go for those. Even though it's not a distance question anymore but you have a tree you gotta go over, you got this and then you have rough over here you probably didn't even think about. And instead one little chip shot from here to there now you're set up. You knock them down. For your birdie, often too putt for your par.

Tina: Not, no. So it's a discipline question, not a distance or an ability question.

Speaker 10: Yeah. Scores management. So it is. So then, she's getting it. so then the thing is well, okay, if you're going to get aggressive and attack to win, to put your best score up, when do you do that? You do that on your approach shots when you're in the fairway. You've got a nice, or a polite rough. You've got a good shot at that and then you've got your putter. That's when you get aggressive.

Tina: The probability is higher.

Speaker 10: Yeah. But the time for you to get aggressive is not on a three wood into the green. Unless you're on a fairway there's not a lot of crazy risk. But I would suggest at your level if you're at a three with the green it's crazy. You'd be in three [inaudible 01:09:54] or whatever but just take the risk out of play. That's the main thing. Play simple, boring golf until you get to your approach shot then you can just let it go.

Tina: You're not saying the basics, the fundamentals are. But then as he gets better, does that advice change when he can start to hit?

Speaker 10: No, I don't think so. It's not that he's not good, good enough. It's that you want to take, you're playing competitive golf now. You're not playing with your friends at the club. You're trying to take risk out of the equation. That's what I'm saying. That's not the time to gamble. Take the risk out of the equation to get to your approach shot. And if you're hitting a par five and it's your second shot and you have a good lie and there's not four bunkers around a small green and woods behind it, then of course you lay up. Of course you go for it.

Speaker 10: But if there are small green, if there are traps, there are trees behind it, there is a creek in front of it, lay up.

Tina: Let me ask you a question. I'm pressure testing for knowledge, not for advice for him. I think the advice for him, what do the pros do?

Speaker 10: Same thing I'm telling him.

Tina: They do the fundamentals, the sure stuff.

Speaker 10: They do not take, they take their risks unless, if there's a game situation going on, like there's three holes left and they're down by four and they have to score X, you see them do all kind of natural [crosstalk 01:11:16].

Tina: That's a different equation, yeah, that makes sense. That's a different risk assessment.

Speaker 10: Just basic off, I mean it's like no. I mean the guys on TV always say why is he thinking about hitting that club?

Tina: So never on the front nine. I'm just thinking out loud. I would say never on the front nine because you still don't know where you're going to fall. On the two thirds shots, between halfway and three quarters, you have to weigh it. And then on the back there's a whole different equation. If you're ever going to go for shots like that.

Speaker 10: No, I think ...

Tina: Not for him, I'm just talking.

Speaker 10: No I think you'd play every hole pretty much the same in terms of what we're talking about, which is unless you're in a situation where you're know there's a leaderboard and you're down by two and you have to eagle to win it.

Tina: You'd take the fundamental shot.

Speaker 10: Those situations are so rare though. I mean, I think if you're playing the game the right way you don't take gambles on punch outs, you don't take gambles, like punch outs, that's the other thing though. Like that one almost went in the sand right, the one you ended up birding though. You hit that one punch shot really good, it didn't go in the sand but it was right where you wanted it.

Will: Oh yeah.

Speaker 10: Like to me that was a little bit of an aggressive.

Will: I didn't mean to go that far. I got the wrong pitching wedge in my hand.

Speaker 10: Course made it up.

Will: No, I just realized after I hit it.

Speaker 10: I got you. But that would be a mental course major error is what I'm saying. Punch outs, a lot of people say well just get your four iron and just run it out there. A lot of times I was telling them, there's no trees or whatever. Somehow be conservative. You don't have to hit that side all the way to the fairway. Just take the gamble out of everything. That's the whole thing. And when you get to where okay, now I'm approaching, then it's hard because well then you've got the pin and the pin could be right in front of a bunker. Do I want to play conservative there? No, not really. Not if you're 130, which is his sweet spot out. You can hit it anywhere. Some people still don't go for that pin. They'll go next to it.

Speaker 10: But for him, that's when he should be aggressive and that's when he's going to make birdies.

Tina: This is what I think from hearing you guys, and me not knowing a damn thing. I feel like the advice from today is so vital because that's what gets him off, it gets him off the game. He does one of those wrist shots, if it doesn't work ...

Speaker 10: That's right. That's it. That's what I was saying about how it snowballs. Because you don't need the stress in your life to be hitting a shot that you have to [inaudible 01:13:50] or some simple, simple, and get aggressive as you want on that [crosstalk 01:13:56].

Will: I was thinking about it. I should've punched out on that one ride, like the [inaudible 01:14:02] right?

Speaker 10: Yeah.

Will: I should've punched out on the one where I hit a five iron in. And you know how the pints are off? That's probably two strokes here.

Tina: She's asleep under the table. Just letting you know. Because she's afraid.

Speaker 10: That's fine.

Will: I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 10: I think you're right.

Will: I just missed heavier shots too.

Tina: So how many ...

Speaker 10: That's going to happen [crosstalk 01:14:32]. That's going to happen.

Tina: How many did you think that you made this error on, the course management error? Like tried to hit it where you should've done the conservative shot?

Will: How many was I over par?

Speaker 10: Enough to where I would've shot par [crosstalk 01:14:46].

Will: Let's see. 10 over par, yeah. [crosstalk 01:14:49].

Tina: That's where I was going.

Speaker 10: You would've won.

Tina: So it's one step away here.

Will: Yeah. Like on two I dabbled. One I bogied because I don't know. I just like to [inaudible 01:15:10].

Tina: I'm glad you said that too because you can't perfect, every shot isn't going to be a mental error. Sometimes you just screw up your shot. But like this, I feel like if you corrected those, those that were that error then ...

Speaker 10: Yeah. And it just cleans your mind too. It cleans your mind. Just do the right thing. And I'll tell you, and then when you want your athleticism to come out and take down the hole, it's your approach and how aggressive is your putt, those are the two areas to be aggressive on. I mean you're [crosstalk 01:15:48] for christ sake, your sand shots are unbelievable. I mean, he's had some sand shots that are like, I don't know how to explain it to you but if you've got a big bunker, a lot of sand shots, you want to land it just barely over the bunker onto the green. But then there's traps over here and you're on the back part of it. The trap's here and the green's up there and you have to hit it high enough to get over the trap but still come down.

Tina: Come down where it needs to come down.

Speaker 10: And he hits those like ...

Tina: Secretly, I hate when he gets in that situation but the couple of times I've seen him play I love to see him hit those because he's so good at it. And the other golfers always are like oh man.

Will: I don't really mind being in it. You know how I hit that five one on the last hole? If I hit the green great. If I was in that bunker I was like all right, I don't really, that's the only reason I even thought about hitting that. I mean, I was not playing that good.

Tina: So his strength is the thing that could tempt him into his weakness.

Speaker 10: Right. Well sometimes. One of his strengths.

Tina: Probably because he's driving.

Will: That's why, like honestly I was thinking about that because there's a bunch of bunkers in front. I was like all right, hit this good Will. And I did.

Speaker 10: You might be in the bunker. The one you hammered?

Will: No, no, no. The one on the last hole. The one where I put like eight feet and I just missed the putt but I just rammed it. I put really aggressively.

Speaker 10: Are you talking about the one you almost hit in the trap on that par four? Everybody else was 100 yards out and you were like, it was a downhill and you chunked it, a little chip, 15 yard chip. You drove all the way down, you almost drove the green.

Will: Oh no, the one where I bladed into the hazard? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 10: So he's right here on one, you've just got to put in that hole in two shots for a birdie and he stalls it into the thing back.

Will: Well I [crosstalk 01:17:35].

Speaker 10: Chunk it.

Will: First I chunk it [crosstalk 01:17:37]. It goes way further than I want it to go. First one I chunked it and it went like five feet.

Speaker 10: So when you hit a golf ball, when you hit it like this and follow through it spins the ball up into the air and it comes down. And a lot of times, and I think it's what you did but a lot of times when people stop it goes [inaudible 01:17:59] right? And when you're chipping you still have to follow through but [crosstalk 01:18:05] sometimes it's hard because you're like if I hit it too hard it's going to go in the, yeah.

Will: That's what happened because, I mean I hit it good but I just decelerated and I didn't bring it back as far because I didn't really trust the shot itself but I hit it good. I was like all right, so I can do this now.

Speaker 10: And then he comes back, what was the craziest thing is, he was so mad he's ready to, he's in knots right? And he comes back and he hits it and then there's the putt right in front of him and it's a long, it's like here to the chair over there but it's a healthy putt. And I'm sure he's going to miss it because he's rushing everything and he drills it and he makes it. Wait a minute. I can't do that.

Will: I knew it was going in after. I didn't think I'd make it when I putt it. But I mean I thought I had my line but then I knew it was going in and I walked it in. It was pretty cool.

Speaker 10: Just slow it down man. And Tina and I have talked about this. When you get mad at yourself ...

Will: I go fast?

Speaker 10: I gotta slow it down. Take the deep breaths. Don't hit the next shot until you're ready. People have to wait for it, they gotta wait for it.

Tina: It adds dramatic pausing.

Speaker 10: Because it affects the next shots after that. It's not even a, there should be a bumper sticker, what is it, half in, half out.

Tina: Look what she does. Hey boys.

Speaker 10: What's down there chicken? I want to see.

Tina: What are you looking at? Chicken's like I'm not moving. Chicken sits like that all the time.

Will: Does she really?

Tina: Yes.

Will: That's hilarious.

Tina: She likes to be [inaudible 01:19:44].

Speaker 12: Just checking in. I just sometimes [inaudible 01:19:47] email. Maybe hanging it up in the corporate world, how exciting. So anyway, call me sometime. [inaudible 01:20:01].

Will: It's kind of comfortable actually. You want ...

Tina: She does it all the time. And then Waffle checks it out and she just kind of looks at her like no.

Will: Not moving so.

Bonnie: Hey Russell, it's Bonnie at Dr. [inaudible 01:20:17] office. I just [inaudible 01:20:19].

Tina: It's all right. Come here, come here. You're all right. You're all right.

Speaker 10: [inaudible 01:20:26] Jesus.

Will: You want to go sit?

Speaker 10: No, I have to tomorrow because it's [inaudible 01:20:32]. All right, let's see what the weather's looking like for tomorrow and I want to hear about your thing here. Hold on. What's that?

Tina: She gets so afraid of the thunder. I always know when a storm is coming because about 30 minutes before she starts pacing [crosstalk 01:20:49] they know. Oh yeah. They can tell they said by the atmospheric pressure. She's right every time.

Speaker 10: Is it in their ears they feel it?

Tina: I don't know. I'm not a dog, but I probably was one.

Speaker 10: That statement's probably ...

Will: I'd like o be a dog for a day.

Tina: Me too but it depends on whose dog.

Speaker 10: My mom used to always say when I was little, I used to always say I wish you could talk, I wish you could talk. She [inaudible 01:21:16] you might not like what he was going to say [crosstalk 01:21:20]. But you might not like what he has to say.

Tina: My favorite is that he's in that mood and he doesn't carry it often. It doesn't become part of who he is and I love that.

Speaker 10: Well, [crosstalk 01:21:36].

Tina: And that's okay but at least he's not like, it doesn't kill his day.

Speaker 10: I know. No, we've got work to do.

Tina: He plays tomorrow.

Speaker 10: [crosstalk 01:21:45] drop him off at the, no, but he's got some things to fix. There were a couple tactical things. One is he's hitting his driver off the tee but there are certain holes where that's too aggressive, you have to hit a lesser club, like a three wood or a two iron. Those are the other long clubs. The driver goes the farthest, then a three wood, then a two. Well, the reason you hit the three or the two is because they're usually easier to keep straight. So you don't want to risk hitting the driver all the time but the problem is right now his three wood he can't hit well, because it's really the wrong kind of shaft. I mean honestly there's an equipment thing there.

Speaker 10: And then, so he doesn't hit that. So then he's hitting the two iron, which I don't know what happened to that. He was hitting that great. He's not hitting that good. So he doesn't have confidence to put his driver down and hit those other clubs. That, you can't win with that situation. So ironically the two clubs we bought him, I bought him in Hawaii are supposed to be at the UPS Store today so I'm going to pick those up. I don't know if they'll be in time for you to practice enough to play them tomorrow but you can at least try them.

Tina: You gonna go pick them up?

Speaker 10: Yeah.

Tina: [inaudible 01:22:49] what?

Speaker 10: Yeah, what?

Tina: Nothing.

Speaker 10: Did you say are we going to go pick them up?

Tina: Mm-hmm (negative).

Speaker 10: I could do that. Play.

Tina: What about plate?

Speaker 10: Do you want to pick it up? Okay. She's like been mentally like, I don't know, you did that pretty good that time. Plate.

Tina: Oh boy.

Speaker 10: Will, what did you say to me when I said [inaudible 01:23:21].

Will: My bad.

Tina: It's all right. Here's the scary thing. I didn't arm it. You're all right, you're all right. You're all right.

Will: Whoops.

Tina: You're fine. You can go down.

Speaker 10: Way to go Will. Geez man.

Will: You're good dude.

Tina: [inaudible 01:24:00]

Will: I would but I can't.

Tina: Hello?

Will: I was just going to see if there was anything, [inaudible 01:24:45] right?

Tina: Yeah, I'll show you where.

Will: I was going to see if there was anything.

Tina: Like a slide off there?

Will: Or something to show where it was going to be. [inaudible 01:26:43] you are.

Tina: Aren't you both just pooped? Did you leave anything upstairs?

Will: [inaudible 01:26:57].

Tina: What I don't get is I didn't set the alarm today when I left and it went off and they called the police. And then I didn't touch it when I walked in the door and neither did you guys.

Speaker 10: We unlocked the door and came in so probably.

Tina: Stop right there. You unlocked the door and it did ding, ding, ding right? Why was it set right there?

Speaker 10: I don't know.

Tina: It's going whack a doodle.

Speaker 10: Yeah.

Tina: I called ADT. They've been out three times. They replaced the front keypad. I said I live alone with an 11 year old girl. Can you fix it? And they charged me for the last time they came out for a visit. Oreo?

Speaker 10: No thanks.

Tina: Oreo?

Will: Yeah, I'll have one. [inaudible 01:27:49].

Tina: Yes. She likes the tops. Come here. Come here. It's not, sit down. Sit down.

Will: Oh God.

Speaker 10: Oh okay, sorry but don't [inaudible 01:28:10]. 12 days in a row now, 11 days in a row.

Will: 450 points. Just say it. Suck it.

Speaker 10: I know, I know, I know. It's so horrible.

Tina: Well, it's keeping you from spiraling. I don't care [crosstalk 01:28:29].

Speaker 10: I'm not spiraling. I'm fine. I told you, I got everything. I got my bonds and my cash, everything. Can't lose money in that. The other is long term [crosstalk 01:28:37].

Tina: All right.

Speaker 10: Believe me. I just can't believe [inaudible 01:28:43]. I'm sorry, I tried.

Tina: Don't be. Don't. Don't try to.

Speaker 10: Well, [inaudible 01:28:48]. Okay. So what were you doing?